Raising LMM compression

malibu795

misspeelleerr
Apr 28, 2007
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Even though I lost fuel economy
My first set I went from LBZ OEM to 17:1 ovals
Second set was LMM to 17.5:1 ovals..
I noticed better cold starting and more responsive part throttle
With my tuning I prefer linear curves that are predictable.
One might need to rescale throttle and part throttle shift points tables possibly timing boost
 

Bdsankey

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Feb 1, 2018
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The OEMs have been dropping compression for years as HP has increased. I feel like if higher compression was the answer the OEMs with all their R&D would have gone that route.

LB7/LLY is 17.5:1
LBZ/LMM is 16.8:1
LML/L5P is 16:1

My personal engines all have been 16.5:1 and have ran great. I've done some customer engines ranging from 15:1 up to 17.5:1 and have always found that 16:1 or 16.5:1 are a great "sweet spot" for all areas. Full out race motors I've seen guys run down in the 13:1-14.5:1 but there are further downstream issues with that like cold starts and overall response etc.


I would love to see some back-to-back testing (same engine configs) with different CRs ranging from 16:1 up to 20:1 just to see what happens.
 

gmduramax

Shits broke
Jun 12, 2008
4,185
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Nor cal
The OEMs have been dropping compression for years as HP has increased. I feel like if higher compression was the answer the OEMs with all their R&D would have gone that route.

LB7/LLY is 17.5:1
LBZ/LMM is 16.8:1
LML/L5P is 16:1

My personal engines all have been 16.5:1 and have ran great. I've done some customer engines ranging from 15:1 up to 17.5:1 and have always found that 16:1 or 16.5:1 are a great "sweet spot" for all areas. Full out race motors I've seen guys run down in the 13:1-14.5:1 but there are further downstream issues with that like cold starts and overall response etc.


I would love to see some back-to-back testing (same engine configs) with different CRs ranging from 16:1 up to 20:1 just to see what happens.
I think the reason OEM has been dropping compression is for NOx emissions reduction. For some reason an L5P with a stock tune will shoot out a puff of smoke on startup. Can’t be good for a DPF but I haven’t figured out if it’s from lowered compression or if making it start rich lowers NOx ??‍♂️
 

malibu795

misspeelleerr
Apr 28, 2007
9,212
1,456
113
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in the buckeye state
I think the reason OEM has been dropping compression is for NOx emissions reduction. For some reason an L5P with a stock tune will shoot out a puff of smoke on startup. Can’t be good for a DPF but I haven’t figured out if it’s from lowered compression or if making it start rich lowers NOx ??‍♂️
Cat used IVAs everyone else used EGR to reduce efficiency of the cylinder to drop NOx

IDK about the L5P tune but on the older one puff a smoke on start up is easy, basically run 75-90% max fuel below 600rpm
 

malibu795

misspeelleerr
Apr 28, 2007
9,212
1,456
113
44
in the buckeye state
The OEMs have been dropping compression for years as HP has increased. I feel like if higher compression was the answer the OEMs with all their R&D would have gone that route.

LB7/LLY is 17.5:1
LBZ/LMM is 16.8:1
LML/L5P is 16:1

My personal engines all have been 16.5:1 and have ran great. I've done some customer engines ranging from 15:1 up to 17.5:1 and have always found that 16:1 or 16.5:1 are a great "sweet spot" for all areas. Full out race motors I've seen guys run down in the 13:1-14.5:1 but there are further downstream issues with that like cold starts and overall response etc.


I would love to see some back-to-back testing (same engine configs) with different CRs ranging from 16:1 up to 20:1 just to see what happens.
Emissions is pushing the lower CR.

I talked with Keith B years ago when they did the 1st 1000hp since no other pistons was available the cut lb7s down to 11-12:1 range just to live..once the mahle motorsports pistons where available they jumped to around 16:1 they picked up some 2-300hp per tune they ran compared to the low 11-12:1 pistons
Compression is power just like timeing, too much of either and no one wants to play nice
 

TheBac

Why do I keep doing this?
Staff member
Apr 19, 2008
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Mid Michigan
I talked with Keith B years ago when they did the 1st 1000hp since no other pistons was available the cut lb7s down to 11-12:1 range just to live..once the mahle motorsports pistons where available they jumped to around 16:1 they picked up some 2-300hp per tune they ran compared to the low 11-12:1 pistons
Compression is power just like timeing, too much of either and no one wants to play nice
Keith's engine was never that low. Maybe 15:1, but not lower. There was nothing special about the shortblock or head work. It was all brute-force compared to what we know now. Eric and I learned a lot during that build.
 

Fingers

Village Idiot
Vendor/Sponsor
Apr 1, 2008
1,735
142
63
White Oak, PA
My current engine is 18.5:1 effective CR. Never again....

My opinion(s), for what its worth.
  • The "perfect" compression cycle and what happens in our engines are not the same. We lose a stupid amount of thermal energy through the pistons, cylinder walls and head. Primarily the Pistons, then head. I measured it years ago when I was checking cylinder pressures. Cold Pistons had a noticeable impact on effective compression ratio. The cold piston affect was worse on higher compression engines. Which makes sense since thermal energy will flow faster the higher the difference between masses. The result is, the hotter the chamber, the more heat you will lose and that heat is what is making the power.
  • Because of the heat loss, the "effective" compression can be a fair bit less than the volume calculated ratio. From my measurements, it ran anywhere from 2%-4% less. But the effective ratio loss was always higher the higher CR of the pistons. My 18.5 : 1 effective ratio compression on my engine for instance comes from pistons that should have put out 19.0 : 1
  • The Ideal adiabatic cycle would give you ~8% pressure increase going from say 17.5 : 1 to 18.5 : 1 but effectively, it is more like 5%-6% and the loss from ideal gets higher the higher the CR.
  • The biggest advantage to increased CR is the improved volumetric efficiency. That is, you are getting closer to 1 : 1 air exchange in the cylinder, so the engine is "breathing" better. Especially before the turbo comes in. Thus the snappier throttle. It also reduces the amount of dead air in the chamber to dilute the oxygen concentration. In none boosted engines, gas and diesel, this is a huge deal.
  • Lastly, there is just more wear and tear on the engines lower end.
IMO, it isn't worth is. Mine is a damn rattle trap at idle, and I hate that aspect of it. Next build will be 16.0 : 1 or maybe 16.5 : 1 , but no higher.
 

Cougar281

Well-known member
Sep 11, 2006
1,962
384
83
St Louis, MO
My current engine is 18.5:1 effective CR. Never again....

My opinion(s), for what its worth.
  • The "perfect" compression cycle and what happens in our engines are not the same. We lose a stupid amount of thermal energy through the pistons, cylinder walls and head. Primarily the Pistons, then head. I measured it years ago when I was checking cylinder pressures. Cold Pistons had a noticeable impact on effective compression ratio. The cold piston affect was worse on higher compression engines. Which makes sense since thermal energy will flow faster the higher the difference between masses. The result is, the hotter the chamber, the more heat you will lose and that heat is what is making the power.
  • Because of the heat loss, the "effective" compression can be a fair bit less than the volume calculated ratio. From my measurements, it ran anywhere from 2%-4% less. But the effective ratio loss was always higher the higher CR of the pistons. My 18.5 : 1 effective ratio compression on my engine for instance comes from pistons that should have put out 19.0 : 1
  • The Ideal adiabatic cycle would give you ~8% pressure increase going from say 17.5 : 1 to 18.5 : 1 but effectively, it is more like 5%-6% and the loss from ideal gets higher the higher the CR.
  • The biggest advantage to increased CR is the improved volumetric efficiency. That is, you are getting closer to 1 : 1 air exchange in the cylinder, so the engine is "breathing" better. Especially before the turbo comes in. Thus the snappier throttle. It also reduces the amount of dead air in the chamber to dilute the oxygen concentration. In none boosted engines, gas and diesel, this is a huge deal.
  • Lastly, there is just more wear and tear on the engines lower end.
IMO, it isn't worth is. Mine is a damn rattle trap at idle, and I hate that aspect of it. Next build will be 16.0 : 1 or maybe 16.5 : 1 , but no higher.
Id argue that your opinion is worth your weight in gold....
 

Fingers

Village Idiot
Vendor/Sponsor
Apr 1, 2008
1,735
142
63
White Oak, PA
My current engine is 18.5:1 effective CR. Never again....

My opinion(s), for what its worth.
  • The "perfect" compression cycle and what happens in our engines are not the same. We lose a stupid amount of thermal energy through the pistons, cylinder walls and head. Primarily the Pistons, then head. I measured it years ago when I was checking cylinder pressures. Cold Pistons had a noticeable impact on effective compression ratio. The cold piston affect was worse on higher compression engines. Which makes sense since thermal energy will flow faster the higher the difference between masses. The result is, the hotter the chamber, the more heat you will lose and that heat is what is making the power.
  • Because of the heat loss, the "effective" compression can be a fair bit less than the volume calculated ratio. From my measurements, it ran anywhere from 2%-4% less. But the effective ratio loss was always higher the higher CR of the pistons. My 18.5 : 1 effective ratio compression on my engine for instance comes from pistons that should have put out 19.0 : 1
  • The Ideal adiabatic cycle would give you ~8% pressure increase going from say 17.5 : 1 to 18.5 : 1 but effectively, it is more like 5%-6% and the loss from ideal gets higher the higher the CR.
  • The biggest advantage to increased CR is the improved volumetric efficiency. That is, you are getting closer to 1 : 1 air exchange in the cylinder, so the engine is "breathing" better. Especially before the turbo comes in. Thus the snappier throttle. It also reduces the amount of dead air in the chamber to dilute the oxygen concentration. In none boosted engines, gas and diesel, this is a huge deal.
  • Lastly, there is just more wear and tear on the engines lower end.
IMO, it isn't worth is. Mine is a damn rattle trap at idle, and I hate that aspect of it. Next build will be 16.0 : 1 or maybe 16.5 : 1 , but no higher.
I should add that when I built the motor, I was shooting for 17.5 :1 (stock) as I said in my post in 2018. I messed up back then. I think when I changed the valve relief from 0.075" to 0.050" or something like that. Duh

Using the chamber pressure sensor showed the effective compression to be 18.5 : 1 which made me go back and recheck the design numbers. Yep, messed up. The previous build measured out to 14.5 :1 on the chamber pressure sensor and hazed like a bitch. Ran fine, and quieter. Just looked like I was fogging for mosquitos in the neighborhood till she got hot.
 

JoshH

Daggum farm truck
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Feb 14, 2007
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Texas!!!
Fingers, do you still sell your combustion chamber pressure test kit?
 

TheBac

Why do I keep doing this?
Staff member
Apr 19, 2008
16,914
3,418
113
Mid Michigan
Fingers, do you still sell your combustion chamber pressure test kit?
I still remember Jon showing me that test equipment on his truck in Merchant's parking lot when he first built and programmed it. 2009? 2010?
The whole time Im thinking, "Im in this truck with a freaking genius". It was so far over my head it wasnt funny, but Jon was really good at explaining it all.
 

Woody35

Member
Jan 4, 2013
85
39
18
I haven't in a long time. Wasn't the hot seller that I thought they would be.
Is there any threads detailing what it consisted off?I found some old threads from 08 on Diesel Place. Any suggestions for newer equipment? I work on large diesel engines. We run a pickup off the flywheel and have a mobile transducer we move around to check firing pressures on different cylinders. We can then download the results and see how each cylinder is performing P-v graphs, etc.. Make adjustments to the fuel rack and check our work, T/S problem cylinders.
 

Fingers

Village Idiot
Vendor/Sponsor
Apr 1, 2008
1,735
142
63
White Oak, PA
Is there any threads detailing what it consisted off?I found some old threads from 08 on Diesel Place. Any suggestions for newer equipment? I work on large diesel engines. We run a pickup off the flywheel and have a mobile transducer we move around to check firing pressures on different cylinders. We can then download the results and see how each cylinder is performing P-v graphs, etc.. Make adjustments to the fuel rack and check our work, T/S problem cylinders.
Custom data collection board, software and a glow plug adapter with sensor.