Bare minimum of upgrade parts needed for longevity for a sub 700hp build.

[Gentrysgarage]

I am going to be building two engines, one to get it the truck rolling with the barest minimum of upgrade parts with an emphasis on longevity. This is a sub 700hp build geared towards towing. I want to be in it with as little money as possible and the longblock will be sold once I have built the long term engine with more aftermarket parts, to offset the money going into the long term engine. I don't want a sawdust in the oil used car salesman type of rebuild as I don't want that type of Karma.
The engine at a bare minimum will have the following:
AF stage 1 camshaft (QUESTION Which brand do you guys prefer?)
Keyed crankshaft (Question 2: how much does this normally run)
Pistons Suggestions please
I am planning to use the block that has to be bored the most out with the best of both engines, as I feel most parts will be changed out in the long term engine. Also I want to start experimenting with with a small twin turbo setup with the cheaper engine to learn and work the bugs out of it.
Thanks in Advance!

 

[1FastBrick]

1st off there is nothing Cheap about rebuilding one of these to take any kind of power.

I Believe the Mahle race cast Pistons is what you will need.
The most economically priced rod is the Callies Rod for the duramax.
The most econmical Standard fire cam is the Wagler Stage 1 Not sure but they might be the least expensive ALT Fire as well.
I just sent my crank out for machining of the key way so I am not sure on the cost yet.

 

[Chevy1925]

if you are not buying a new crank, dont expect the AF cam to stop it from breaking. its also not a for sure fix even with a new crank.

good used LBZ/LMM rods, set of new LB7/LLY pistons that are de-lipped or spring for race cast pistons, balance it all with the flexplate/balancer you plan to use. i know of plenty of trucks running in the 600-700hp range with that setup

Now you wanting to tow, that will now depend on what HP you plan to tow at. towing at the 600-700hp you want to change alot of things

 

[2004LB7]

Cooling and oil temperature will be one of your biggest problems as James has already found out

 

[JoshH]

Callies has a decent budget option for all crank, rods, and AF cam. For pistons I would use Mahle race cast. That said, there are no guarantees for any of this. There is no mindless driving with these trucks. A negligent operator can kill even the most expensive build; nothing is bulletproof.

 

[Dozerboy]

This is a very loaded question. We definitely need more details as to exactly how you will use this truck.

My stock block LBZ is 700hp, but it has good tuning and fuel/air to survive there. I do go down to 500hp for towing my 9,000lb camper, but I'm very mindful about how hard I'm pushing on it.

 

[Dean E]

Exactly the point I was going to make. It is one thing to crank up the tune to make more power but that is not the goal when pulling a substantial load. I would say pistons are about the weakest link here. I did a 70 hp tune on my LMM and is about the best for both worlds IMO. Helps a bit with fuel economy (at least when I'm not mashing the throttle) and towing either my enclosed trailer or gooseneck. Dean

 

[ikeG]

Looking for a picture and the difference of the LB7 and the later style pistons.

I pulled apart the parts engine and fount it had Mahle pistons one was holed and another had a crack starting. I thought Mahle was the best but the ones in this engine were cracked. I think I read they changed the piston pin design and also wanted to see a pic of the oil ring land and piston pin...

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Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

 

[Bdsankey]

Callies has a decent budget option for all crank, rods, and AF cam. For pistons I would use Mahle race cast. That said, there are no guarantees for any of this. There is no mindless driving with these trucks. A negligent operator can kill even the most expensive build; nothing is bulletproof.

^This is a hard to beat setup for the money.

1) Callies budget rods
2) Mahle motorsport or cut down GM LB7 pistons
3) small cam like a wagler stage 1, callies stage 1, comp stage 1, socal 3388 etc
4) Callies compstar/durastar crankshaft
5) pinned/shimmed oil pump (I always go DHD)
6) ARP everywhere
7) 17-19 oil cooler or 20+ if you want to run the newer filter
8) good damper like a fluidampr, they IMO work the best
9) BD/DHD/Goerend style flexplate

 

[Gentrysgarage]

1st off there is nothing Cheap about rebuilding one of these to take any kind of power.

I Believe the Mahle race cast Pistons is what you will need.
The most economically priced rod is the Callies Rod for the duramax.
The most econmical Standard fire cam is the Wagler Stage 1 Not sure but they might be the least expensive ALT Fire as well.
I just sent my crank out for machining of the key way so I am not sure on the cost yet.

Thanks for the reply, As I am pricing things the word cheap is nowhere to be found even economical is hard. I will be looking into the parts you have shown me.

Please let me know how much the keying costs when you find out, as that will determine if I just bight the bullet on a new crankshaft.

if you are not buying a new crank, dont expect the AF cam to stop it from breaking. its also not a for sure fix even with a new crank.

good used LBZ/LMM rods, set of new LB7/LLY pistons that are de-lipped or spring for race cast pistons, balance it all with the flexplate/balancer you plan to use. i know of plenty of trucks running in the 600-700hp range with that setup

Now you wanting to tow, that will now depend on what HP you plan to tow at. towing at the 600-700hp you want to change alot of things

James your first line has me a little scared, I was really hoping to stay with a stock crank on the learner engine. The second line gives me hope and is what I was hoping to hear. As far as towing, don't think I will ever approach the CDL requirement range (at least not often). The most power I would want is to be able to comfortably pass semis on flat land with lighter loads.

Cooling and oil temperature will be one of your biggest problems as James has already found out

Thanks, Noted!

Callies has a decent budget option for all crank, rods, and AF cam. For pistons I would use Mahle race cast. That said, there are no guarantees for any of this. There is no mindless driving with these trucks. A negligent operator can kill even the most expensive build; nothing is bulletproof.

Thanks JoshH yeah I have sadly learned that it is true, nothing is bulletproof, we can only try to get as close as we can. I will look at the parts recommended.

This is a very loaded question. We definitely need more details as to exactly how you will use this truck.

My stock block LBZ is 700hp, but it has good tuning and fuel/air to survive there. I do go down to 500hp for towing my 9,000lb camper, but I'm very mindful about how hard I'm pushing on it.

As far as towing, don't think I will ever approach the CDL requirement range (at least not often). The most power I would want is to be able to comfortably pass semis on flat land with lighter loads. Do you have a thread on your tuning/fuel system? Thanks

Exactly the point I was going to make. It is one thing to crank up the tune to make more power but that is not the goal when pulling a substantial load. I would say pistons are about the weakest link here. I did a 70 hp tune on my LMM and is about the best for both worlds IMO. Helps a bit with fuel economy (at least when I'm not mashing the throttle) and towing either my enclosed trailer or gooseneck. Dean

Do you have a thread on the mods you have done? Thanks

Looking for a picture and the difference of the LB7 and the later style pistons.

I pulled apart the parts engine and fount it had Mahle pistons one was holed and another had a crack starting. I thought Mahle was the best but the ones in this engine were cracked. I think I read they changed the piston pin design and also wanted to see a pic of the oil ring land and piston pin...

r.tapatalk.com

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

Hi ikeG, thanks for your replies on that thread, I broke out the piston question separately so others could find the answer to that question when searching easier.

^This is a hard to beat setup for the money.

1) Callies budget rods
2) Mahle motorsport or cut down GM LB7 pistons
3) small cam like a wagler stage 1, callies stage 1, comp stage 1, socal 3388 etc
4) Callies compstar/durastar crankshaft
5) pinned/shimmed oil pump (I always go DHD)
6) ARP everywhere
7) 17-19 oil cooler or 20+ if you want to run the newer filter
8) good damper like a fluidampr, they IMO work the best
9) BD/DHD/Goerend style flexplate

Thanks for the complete list!

I was thinking of just using ARP for the rods and heads, so I need it everywhere? It does give someone piece of mind for sure.

Is the pinned/shimmed oil pump better than the LML pump, if it is comprable that would be good as I understand to run the LML pump I have to change the cover also so the pinned/shimmed route would be much less complicated.

Also on the damper, on the permanent engine I was thinking of ATI, as they would give me another option (all be it not my preferred option) on running a P7100 pump if my computer paranoia kicks in too hard in the future.

If I have to buy the crank I will,

Again, Thanks for the replies, for this preliminary learner motor, I was hoping to use the stock crank, rods and have the engine externally balanced. The permanent engine I want to build I am still going for the same HP, but with a higher budget.And by spreading the parts purchasing over time as my wallet recovers from the previous expenditures on the permanent engine, that I can build/buy the good stuff over time. The permanent engine will be internally balanced which is yet another expence.

The one thing I definitely want to run on the learner engine is the compound turbos. I have grown weary of watching EGT gauges in the Cummins and Powerstroke trucks I had and the compounds (coupled with the mods to support it) makes the EGT gauge a nice thing to have and glance at, but doesn't need to glued to/stressed over, I'd rather enjoy looking at the view outside the windshield...plus its a little extra HP!

I am under pressure from the boss to finish this truck and don't think i can afford the crankshaft and I really thought the stock rods were good to 700/750 HP range. Should I lower my HP range/expectations on the learner engine? If so what should I be shooting for HP wise?

 

[08lmm72mm]

I've read fluidampner isn't good for cold climates and the viscosity of the fluid thickens up and can cause balance issues which can lead to a broken crank.

 

[1FastBrick]

So I just got back from the machine shop. I was charged $93.75 in my case to cut the key way. I supplied the 5MM Key stock material and Removed the timing gear that is pressed on. I also supplied the balancer and crank driven gear that drives the oil pump.

The charge is based on time to set it up and machine the slot.

I also had it magnafluxed before the work was done and specified for them to pay close attention to that front area where they normally break. Then had it polished at the end of all the work.

$93.75 to set up and cut keyway
$31.25 to mag
$43.75 to polish

Disclaimer: Labor rate's very from State to State and even County to County. This is just what I paid for those services from my local machine shop that I trust.

 

[Bdsankey]

I've read fluidampner isn't good for cold climates and the viscosity of the fluid thickens up and can cause balance issues which can lead to a broken crank.

Can't say I've seen that problem here on trucks that run and are used in the -25f and colder area.

 

[1FastBrick]

Also Gale banks uses the fluidampner exclusively as well and has logo eteched into them.

If cold climate really was an issue, I am sure the military would have broken plenty of cranks by now... Some of those guys could brake a rubber hammer in a padded room....

 

[Bdsankey]

Also Gale banks uses the fluidampner exclusively as well and has logo eteched into them.

If cold climate really was an issue, I am sure the military would have broken plenty of cranks by now... Some of those guys could brake a rubber hammer in a padded room....

There hasn't been any snapped cranks to my knowledge yet on the JLTV platform.

 

[1FastBrick]

There hasn't been any snapped cranks to my knowledge yet on the JLTV platform.

I haven't seen one up close but I know he supplies the Duramax Power plant and I have seen pictures of them with both a stock balancer and the Banks branded Fluidampner on them.

An knowing the military and how strict they are for parts and reliability I am sure they were tested Before and after.

 

[Bdsankey]

Thanks for the complete list!

I was thinking of just using ARP for the rods and heads, so I need it everywhere? It does give someone piece of mind for sure.

If you're going to do aftermarket connecting rods then you do not need to buy ARP rod bolts as any aftermarket connecting rod has an improved rod bolt. I am more so referencing ARP main studs, head studs, balancer bolt (TTY), flexplate bolts (TTY).

Is the pinned/shimmed oil pump better than the LML pump, if it is comprable that would be good as I understand to run the LML pump I have to change the cover also so the pinned/shimmed route would be much less complicated.

What generation is this engine/truck you're going to be building? Your post does not have that information. You can use an LML oil pump in a 01-10 engine but you must do some machining or swapping around of covers/spacing accessory brackets to do so. The pinned/shimmed pumps are OEM pumps (available for all generations) are simply cut for a pin/key on the oil pump shaft and gear as well as the internal regulator is shimmed to increase pressure.

Also on the damper, on the permanent engine I was thinking of ATI, as they would give me another option (all be it not my preferred option) on running a P7100 pump if my computer paranoia kicks in too hard in the future.

If I have to buy the crank I will,

Again, Thanks for the replies, for this preliminary learner motor, I was hoping to use the stock crank, rods and have the engine externally balanced. The permanent engine I want to build I am still going for the same HP, but with a higher budget.And by spreading the parts purchasing over time as my wallet recovers from the previous expenditures on the permanent engine, that I can build/buy the good stuff over time. The permanent engine will be internally balanced which is yet another expence.

The one thing I definitely want to run on the learner engine is the compound turbos. I have grown weary of watching EGT gauges in the Cummins and Powerstroke trucks I had and the compounds (coupled with the mods to support it) makes the EGT gauge a nice thing to have and glance at, but doesn't need to glued to/stressed over, I'd rather enjoy looking at the view outside the windshield...plus its a little extra HP!

I am under pressure from the boss to finish this truck and don't think i can afford the crankshaft and I really thought the stock rods were good to 700/750 HP range. Should I lower my HP range/expectations on the learner engine? If so what should I be shooting for HP wise?

What is the gain of building two engines? It seems like a very large cash outlay to do it all twice. Personally I wouldn't run stock rods to 700-750whp range on something I was counting on day in and out but that's my personal opinion. Have I done it? Absolutely, but those are on trucks that are toys and not DDs/work vehicles.

 

[Bdsankey]

I haven't seen one up close but I know he supplies the Duramax Power plant and I have seen pictures of them with both a stock balancer and the Banks branded Fluidampner on them.

An knowing the military and how strict they are for parts and reliability I am sure they were tested Before and after.

Let's just say I would have heard by now if there were crank issues on the JLTV line in arctic temperatures, I'll leave it at that.

 

[Gentrysgarage]

So I just got back from the machine shop. I was charged $93.75 in my case to cut the key way. I supplied the 5MM Key stock material and Removed the timing gear that is pressed on. I also supplied the balancer and crank driven gear that drives the oil pump.

The charge is based on time to set it up and machine the slot.

I also had it magnafluxed before the work was done and specified for them to pay close attention to that front area where they normally break. Then had it polished at the end of all the work.

$93.75 to set up and cut keyway
$31.25 to mag
$43.75 to polish

Disclaimer: Labor rate's very from State to State and even County to County. This is just what I paid for those services from my local machine shop that I trust.

Thanks for the prices, they are higher in my small town that I live in. There is only one machine shop and they know it and charge accordingly I am going to try San Antonio shops.

 

[Gentrysgarage]

If you're going to do aftermarket connecting rods then you do not need to buy ARP rod bolts as any aftermarket connecting rod has an improved rod bolt. I am more so referencing ARP main studs, head studs, balancer bolt (TTY), flexplate bolts (TTY).

Thanks for the clarification on the places that the ARP bolts are needed.

What generation is this engine/truck you're going to be building? Your post does not have that information. You can use an LML oil pump in a 01-10 engine but you must do some machining or swapping around of covers/spacing accessory brackets to do so. The pinned/shimmed pumps are OEM pumps (available for all generations) are simply cut for a pin/key on the oil pump shaft and gear as well as the internal regulator is shimmed to increase pressure.

Thanks again, it is a very early LMM. I thought it was only the front cover, As it is much more involved than I was lead to believe, I will follow your suggestion with the pinned and shimmed pump.

What is the gain of building two engines? It seems like a very large cash outlay to do it all twice. Personally I wouldn't run stock rods to 700-750whp range on something I was counting on day in and out but that's my personal opinion. Have I done it? Absolutely, but those are on trucks that are toys and not DDs/work vehicles.

The main reason is budget, I have almost enough to build a really good shortblock, but then have nothing left for the ECM, and everything else the truck needs. So I am/was planning on buying the best parts slowly as the deals popped up. I was hoping (against all odds I knew in the back of my head) that I could build the first motor a little cheaper, so I could learn programing/tuning and experiment on it and if I blew it up I wasn't out the big money it takes to make the engine as bulletproof as possible. Plus you can never get all your money out of an engine unless you are a brick and mortar shop, so I know I would loose on the sale of the learner, which i plan to sell once the permanent engine is close to be finished to help finance the rest of the parts needed for it.