Aluminum Rods are in Texas!

[05smoker]

Yes, build in progress as we speak for the d-max. how ever i know quite a few pro mod alcohol diesel pullers running aluminum rods....making stupid power and running 7000 rpm+

Alcohol tractors run aluminum rods. Diesel tractors do not. They've been tried in that application and have failed.

I'm no expert like you Wade, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.:roflmao:

Eric, you need to see if the initial savings on these rods are not offset by additional costs down the road in your build, like additional machining costs, etc. (or a block).

 

[68skylark455]

Just a question but in gas engines we all aspired to have the funds to buy Titainium cranks and rods, for the strength, weight and the fact they wind quicker then steel or aluminum. Why not in a Dmax?

 

[Diesel Technology Source]

Didnt post anything here to offened anyone just posting my opinion on this subject and nothing else! I feel that when I build a street engine for myself or a customer that it should last as long as a factory engine and we all know that these rods will shorten the service life of the engine. During the period that I have been dealing with engines all engines I have known of a few guys that run aluminum rods in their street cars but only very limited miles per year. And they were all manuals. I know the allison trans likes to aid the truck in stopping by down shifting and this is where I feel that the aluminum rods are the weakest. The rod bolt where it attaches to the rod will fail the aluminum isnt strong enough to hold the bolts in the threads. Thats the only reason that they wouldnt work I feel. If you had a manual trans and didnt let the engine slow the truck It word work just like any other rod.

 

[McRat]

Just a question but in gas engines we all aspired to have the funds to buy Titainium cranks and rods, for the strength, weight and the fact they wind quicker then steel or aluminum. Why not in a Dmax?

Titanium would be the best choice. For someone with a large wallet ... I was quoted ~$6000 a set.

 

[Mike_S]

Hell, thats only 2 sets of carillos...lol!

 

[McRat]

Didnt post anything here to offened anyone just posting my opinion on this subject and nothing else! I feel that when I build a street engine for myself or a customer that it should last as long as a factory engine and we all know that these rods will shorten the service life of the engine. During the period that I have been dealing with engines all engines I have known of a few guys that run aluminum rods in their street cars but only very limited miles per year. And they were all manuals. I know the allison trans likes to aid the truck in stopping by down shifting and this is where I feel that the aluminum rods are the weakest. The rod bolt where it attaches to the rod will fail the aluminum isnt strong enough to hold the bolts in the threads. Thats the only reason that they wouldnt work I feel. If you had a manual trans and didnt let the engine slow the truck It word work just like any other rod.

Well, one saving grace is that our engines don't have much compression braking, hence less negative load on the rods.

My gut feeling is that if alum rods were a viable replacement for steel, you'd have seen them by now from an OEM. A modern engine is mostly aluminum, and some even have titanium rods.

For a race-only app, or a weekend warrior, they might be a good choice. But for the majority of us who use their trucks as trucks, steel is known and well tested. It would really suck to find out they get shorter or oblong over time, which is what aluminum does under impact loading. There is also the concern with temp. 7075 is a very high strength alum, it's even used for armor plate on the M113, and many aircraft frames. But at 300°F it loses roughly 1/2 it's strength if my reading is correct. It's why the SR71 had to go with a titanium airframe. Not because the alum melted, but because it lost too much strength at relatively low temps.

Who knows? I might try a set. But to be honest, if steel pistons are coming, I'll probably wait until then.

 

[Stingpuller]

Rods

Not offended at all David. But what your are saying just isn't how it works. Aluminum is not for most as Pat said. Thay are a opition in a race motor with a forged piston which is normally lighter than stock. Wade needs so time on his and then we all will see how they hold up. In a lower rpm like a diesel I see it as a win/win deal to help save the crank/block. They act like a big old shock absorber in the engine. As much as I don't care for Wade, He's on the rite track with his motor. Just for the record it's not that I don't care for him as a person, it's just how he likes to claim things that he has not been a part of or how many or how much or how big or how bad or well you get the point. Jeff

 

[Mika]

Not offended at all David. But what your are saying just isn't how it works. Aluminum is not for most as Pat said. Thay are a opition in a race motor with a forged piston which is normally lighter than stock. Wade needs so time on his and then we all will see how they hold up. In a lower rpm like a diesel I see it as a win/win deal to help save the crank/block. They act like a big old shock absorber in the engine. As much as I don't care for Wade, He's on the rite track with his motor. Just for the record it's not that I don't care for him as a person, it's just how he likes to claim things that he has not been a part of or how many or how much or how big or how bad or well you get the point. Jeff

I have now 2 sets of aftermarket rods for my race engine (old crowers and new Carrillos). I try to get time soon to open Punishers engine and check how bearings are this time. If there is visible failure after 8 passes and few thousand miles, I probaly will get aluminium rods too, because they may help bearings to live longer.

 

[Mike]

Heck, if that's the right price, I might run a set, pull them, then measure.

I'd be interested to see what you come up with. How accurate is that fancy equipment you have? IIrc something like .00001

 

[McRat]

Realistically, our normal accuracy is 0.00005" when doing multipoint circles and cylinders on parts under 12".

A couple machines have resolution of 0.00001" through interpolation. That's a tenth of tenth for those in Rio Linda.

But due to the type of touch probe we use, roundness readings are only good to 0.0001" in the real world.

 

[Mike]

No it does not, but i was trying to help you understand the reality of what your getting into. But what would i know ...Since im the only one who has done this, i have more expirence than anyone on this specific type of build. i wouldent get to cocky, you might need a favor one day.



BTW i have a few aluminum builds in process right now, among several other's...

been doing this probably longer than you've had a drivers permit :baby:

 

[Mike]

Realistically, our normal accuracy is 0.00005" when doing multipoint circles and cylinders on parts under 12".

A couple machines have resolution of 0.00001" through interpolation. That's a tenth of tenth for those in Rio Linda.

But due to the type of touch probe we use, roundness readings are only good to 0.0001" in the real world.

Oh ya, that's right with a 5 instead of a 1, I can't even imagine how small that is much less relate to that tiny difference. Or in your tests, that may be a huge difference. One more question, do you have a way to test brinell hardness?

 

[Mike]

Wade needs so time on his and then we all will see how they hold up

i expect not. Innovation er..... I suspect more accurate information will be available as others begin to test.

 

[GeneralTJI]

That's a tenth of tenth for those in Rio Linda.

:roflmao: :thumb:

 

[WolfLMM]

Realistically, our normal accuracy is 0.00005" when doing multipoint circles and cylinders on parts under 12".

A couple machines have resolution of 0.00001" through interpolation. That's a tenth of tenth for those in Rio Linda.

But due to the type of touch probe we use, roundness readings are only good to 0.0001" in the real world.

To measure to that degree of accuracy, you had better keep your shop at a stable temp, and the parts you are measuring.

We have a dedicated CMM, but honestly, all of our mills have renishaw probes, so we use them as cmm, that way we can run lights out production, and not worry about coming in to a pile of dead parts the next day. Wouldn't have it any other way now, I'm spoiled.

 

[Diesel power]

Wade, Just shut up!! I will bet my house that none of us can bend a aluminum rod from Fowler(any good company) unless you hydrolic the motor!!! We cannot begin to make enough power to bend theses rods. Also you will not pull the rod/cap apart, They are stonger than most any steel rod in that department also. The cap is wider and they move the bolts out and it makes them a lot stronger. I can tell that most on here have never run aluminum and that's fine but you shouldn't try to talk bad about something you have never run for yourself!! That wouuld make you sound like Wade! Not a good thing. Are they for everyone? Nope! But in a race motor with limited miles a year, They are a option. I have personally run aluminum in street motors for many miles. I still have a couple of sets sitting aroung in the garage at home. I have broken 1 rod out of god knows how many and that was my fault! I was doing something I should not have been doing. Yes I also will admit when I do something wrong. Over the years I have boken a lot of stuff but I also learned what would and wouldn't work without others just telling me it wouldn't. Sorry for the rant but they could and will work in the correct setup and yes they would need replaced sometime. How many of you guys replace your aftermarket steel rods? They have a life cycle also! Nascar replaces there rods after so many laps. anything fatigues after time. Jeff

STING, I NEVER SAID ANYTHING WAS WRONG WITH FOLWER, I JUST STATED I WENT ANOTHER DIRECTION.

Alcohol tractors run aluminum rods. Diesel tractors do not. They've been tried in that application and have failed.

I'm no expert like you Wade, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.:roflmao:

Eric, you need to see if the initial savings on these rods are not offset by additional costs down the road in your build, like additional machining costs, etc. (or a block).

I have seen and know of several DIESEL pullers useing aluminum rods.

Just a question but in gas engines we all aspired to have the funds to buy Titainium cranks and rods, for the strength, weight and the fact they wind quicker then steel or aluminum. Why not in a Dmax?

Ti prices have gone through the roof... monday i was quoted @ 1800 a rod....:roflmao:

 

[WolfLMM]

To measure to that degree of accuracy, you had better keep your shop at a stable temp, and the parts you are measuring.

We have a dedicated CMM, but honestly, all of our mills have renishaw probes, so we use them as cmm, that way we can run lights out production, and not worry about coming in to a pile of dead parts the next day. Wouldn't have it any other way now, I'm spoiled.

Oh, I meant to say, I completely agree with Pat!

 

[McRat]

Oh ya, that's right with a 5 instead of a 1, I can't even imagine how small that is much less relate to that tiny difference. Or in your tests, that may be a huge difference. One more question, do you have a way to test brinell hardness?

No, we don't do any hardness testing.

 

[McRat]

To measure to that degree of accuracy, you had better keep your shop at a stable temp, and the parts you are measuring.

...

Yup, we are 68-72°F and let all parts soak in a temp controlled area. We monitor the part temp with a NIST calibrated thermometer, and our big CMM's are thermally compensated to boot. We check the machines against each other using a Renishaw MCG (Machine Checking Gage) and also have an outside agency verify our machines with NIST standards. Perhaps overkill, but that's our lifeblood. When we say something is 1.0000", it's not .9999 or 1.0001.

 

[paint94979]

Yup, we are 68-72°F and let all parts soak in a temp controlled area. We monitor the part temp with a NIST calibrated thermometer, and our big CMM's are thermally compensated to boot. We check the machines against each other using a Renishaw MCG (Machine Checking Gage) and also have an outside agency verify our machines with NIST standards. Perhaps overkill, but that's our lifeblood. When we say something is 1.0000", it's not .9999 or 1.0001.

Pat that doesn't seem to be very precise if you ask me :hug: