Nitorus and the diesel

[COMP461]

This thread will be tech and for people to share information and idea for using nitrous in drag racing.

First do not take this a bragging because my piston melting ability speak for itself, but its is to set my credentials in nitrous burning ability.
Ten years ago I started working with Nitrous Express to use nitrous on the Dr Performance truck until I got fired. I was trying to make it spool quick enough to hit a .500 Pro Tree in NHRA Super Street.
My efforts were to make a boost reference controller. I laid out a flow chart of what I wanted it to do. NX had an electronics company build to that spec. I worked with the prototype on both the DP truck and on Project X .

I believe that the sooner you get nitrous flowing the better. I start my spool ramps at 1 lbs of boost usually at 10% total flow. and bring it to 100 % as soon as it will take it and burn up. You have to work on the ramps. Here is a simple ramp for a spool up stage.

notice this stage comes on when the second input is activated IE brake pedal.

you still must have throttle input as well. I set the throttle to about 10 to 15 % of total throttle this allows it to work when you are staging.
For many years the tech calls were forwarded to me from NX , I still get a lot of people calling for advice on using this system.


I put the nitrous on engines with intercoolers in the intercooler tank . I usually connect the solenoid directly to the tank

There are to options to which side of the intercooler . On the hot side is more forgiving on not getting to much on before the engine is up enough to not have a cool out . Nitrous in diesels does not lean pop like gas motors , rather the template of the intake air gets so cold that the diesel ignition does not happen.

Putting the nitrous on the hot side of the intercooler give you zero cooling effect . I have done lots of dyno texting and data logged the temp at the turbo and at the port
on Project X I used a Banks Technocooler , and it was a very efficient intercooler, actually the best I have seen of the stock style intercoolers. With Project X at the Texas mile, I tried it on both side of the cooler and logged it .
with the nitrous on the Hot side the turbo out was around 300 degrees . Poor truck only had a SB66 on it. Ill try to find those logges but that been a long time , here were the results

Texas mile diesel Powers Project X diesel

Speed----------Nitrous----Turbo out---Port temp---out side air
151 mph--------none------300---------105----------85
161 mph-------.125--------300--------105----------85 nitrous hot side IC
165 mph ------.125--------300----------75----------85 nitrous cold side IC


Nitrous does not need an over rich fueling to make power . The more nitrous you put in, the more power it make. Reason , it speeds up flame propagation speed in the combustion chamber and brings up efficiency.


I will put on ignore anyone that wants to make this tread a bash thread

 

[COMP461]

here is my manifold years ago ,

 

[S Phinney]

Have you tested cryo treatment to the intercooler with spraying co2 coupled with nitrous?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[COMP461]

Have you tested cryo treatment to the intercooler with spraying co2 coupled with nitrous?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

if I'm going to use Nitrous , I want it to go in the motor , it is far more efficient in cooler through Latent heat vaporization.

You have to be really carful of using CO2 and not letting it get any where near the intake track, its a great fire suppressant.

I know that Greg Young at ZZ builds a lot of those intercooler spray bars for LS turbo stuff , and they seem to work good, but you cant put enough nitrous in a gas motor to get enough a cooler effect

 

[Hot COCOAL]

Nitrous does not need an over rich fueling to make power . The more nitrous you put in, the more power it make. Reason , it speeds up flame propagation speed in the combustion chamber and brings up efficiency.

Ahhh...I always thought n2o allowed a greater power potential because it increases the amount of oxygen available in the cylinder, therefore you could add more fuel? And it also has cooling properties/cooling effect on IAT'S, which would also yeild more HP...I alwo thought N2O helped in reducing the chance of predetonation and allowing for more room for timing aejustment?

Also, you said yourself that with N2O you can cool the cylinder so much that it would snuff out the ignition event...which I don't really agree with, but I could see creating an environment within the cylinder that did not adhere to parameters that would allow for combustion to take place..ie, improper A/F/R...so please explain how N2O speeds up flame propagation... Cuz I don't see what you're talking about...when its primary function is to cool IAT and add oxygen into the cylinder, so more fuel.can be utilized...to make more ponies and such..

I guess that I can see how the cooler charge entering the cylinder would cause a more turbulent mix/swirl to occur...but Idont understand how N2O in itself, speed up.flame propagation...N2O isn't flammable...

 

[COMP461]

Ahhh...I always thought n2o allowed a greater power potential because it increases the amount of oxygen available in the cylinder, therefore you could add more fuel? And it also has cooling properties/cooling effect on IAT'S, which would also yeild more HP...I alwo thought N2O helped in reducing the chance of predetonation and allowing for more room for timing aejustment?

Also, you said yourself that with N2O you can cool the cylinder so much that it would snuff out the ignition event...which I don't really agree with, but I could see creating an environment within the cylinder that did not adhere to parameters that would allow for combustion to take place..ie, improper A/F/R...so please explain how N2O speeds up flame propagation... Cuz I don't see what you're talking about...when its primary function is to cool IAT and add oxygen into the cylinder, so more fuel.can be utilized...to make more ponies and such..

I guess that I can see how the cooler charge entering the cylinder would cause a more turbulent mix/swirl to occur...but Idont understand how N2O in itself, speed up.flame propagation...N2O isn't flammable...

I was under the believe that nitrous always put the flame out . Then the first of the summer , we were doing some tune work, I stall check it on the convertor and then Chris uses that Data to tune . We inadvertently turned on a system that was missing a jet in one hole . it did this is one revolution of the motor , because after the compression was gone the cylinder could not fire

flame from speed is a component of combustion efficient. The faster the mixture burns with out detonation the more power you make. other component's of this are combustion chamber design, fuel dispersion, and droplet size

One thing with doing engine development , you must keep an open mind and go where the data takes you , not try to make the data fit your beliefs

 

[Hot COCOAL]

Interesting concept, it does make sense...more so to me, by controlling the entirety of the combustion event and fuel, to a single, explosive and instantaneous ignition event, vs maybe, a more drawn out, longer ignition event where some fuel is being burnt before the optimal moment...

In my weak understanding, I think....
A) because if fuel is being burnt prematurely, isn't it actually robbing energy and creating added stress against the opposing piston and the RA?
B) you want the entirety of the AFR to come to its ignition point pretty much TDC, right, so that the event drives the piston down and transfers the energy though and to the opposing aide of the RA

I also thought this is the theory and reasoning behind using piston bowl?

Your ending statement is pretty true to form, for all things, sir...

 

[COMP461]

Interesting concept, it does make sense...more so to me, by controlling the entirety of the combustion event and fuel, to a single, explosive and instantaneous ignition event, vs maybe, a more drawn out, longer ignition event where some fuel is being burnt before the optimal moment...

In my weak understanding, I think....
A) because if fuel is being burnt prematurely, isn't it actually robbing energy and creating added stress against the opposing piston and the RA?
B) you want the entirety of the AFR to come to its ignition point pretty much TDC, right, so that the event drives the piston down and transfers the energy though and to the opposing aide of the RA

I also thought this is the theory and reasoning behind using piston bowl?

Your ending statement is pretty true to form, for all things, sir...

your almost there .


Diesels run by compression ignition , not detonation , this is a big misunderstanding

you want the fuel load to be a homoigenous mixture , that is what we continue to up fuel pressure to get smaller and smaller droplets and expose as much fuel to and much oxygen as soon as possible .
when you speed up the combustion process you require less timing

Cetane rating is the ability of the fuel to resist detonation



I have a theory with the ultra high compression. The ignition starts when the injector fires .

The only reason for low compression was to find a way for a fixed timing motor (P PUMP) to get around peak torque with out blowing the crank out of the bottom of the motor.

I accidently put compression in the Dr Performance truck engine when I messed on decking the block. I was decking the block at RayMac when I stored the truck and built it. Ray told me to take .004 off the block, I took .040 off. Huge mess up . I just chucked the piston's up and cut the decks. Boom I had 19 to one . It worked .



well going out to dyno the motor , will get back on tonight

 

[TROJAN366]

Nitrous does not need an over rich fueling to make power . The more nitrous you put in, the more power it make. Reason , it speeds up flame propagation speed in the combustion chamber and brings up efficiency.

I just don't see how this could be true. There will come a time where there is no more fuel to burn. If you have a stock fuel truck with an S472 and add nitrous you might gain a few horsepower but it won;t make any more power than a truck with properly sized twins. It is just a matter off adding air and fuel then igniting them to make power. If you only have so much fuel you can only make so much power no?

 

[GSXRTURBO1]

It depends where in the stroke that the fuel is completely burned. If you can do it early enough, there is more leverage on the crank, so more power is made because the cylinder pressure is there early enough to take advantage of the crank position.

For instance, if the fuel is still burning as the piston nears BDC there's no leverage on the crank throw, so that is cylinder pressure lost and the combustion event happened at the wrong time. You still may have burned all of the fuel, but it didn't do you much good as far as transmitting that cylinder pressure to the crank.

I hope this makes sense, I sometimes have trouble putting it into words

 

[COMP461]

I just don't see how this could be true. There will come a time where there is no more fuel to burn. If you have a stock fuel truck with an S472 and add nitrous you might gain a few horsepower but it won;t make any more power than a truck with properly sized twins. It is just a matter off adding air and fuel then igniting them to make power. If you only have so much fuel you can only make so much power no?

ok , maybe I need to rephrase that. Nitrous is added oxygen , and it needs to pair with fuel to make power. The deal is that the diesel combustion process in a averaged fuel trucks can be improved. Part of this addition fuel is burning the fuel that normally would be burned 40 degrees ATDC being burned before . After that point you will need fuel. another misconception is you have to have smoke to make power . Lean is mean , but we all don't have dyno with opacity meter to tune



here is the stall check that got the piston above .

https://www.facebook.com/COMP461/videos/vb.212116095491596/864419300261269/?type=2&theater

 

[COMP461]

It depends where in the stroke that the fuel is completely burned. If you can do it early enough, there is more leverage on the crank, so more power is made because the cylinder pressure is there early enough to take advantage of the crank position.

For instance, if the fuel is still burning as the piston nears BDC there's no leverage on the crank throw, so that is cylinder pressure lost and the combustion event happened at the wrong time. You still may have burned all of the fuel, but it didn't do you much good as far as transmitting that cylinder pressure to the crank.

I hope this makes sense, I sometimes have trouble putting it into words

you treed me but you are spot on

 

[Hot COCOAL]

your almost there .



I accidently put compression in the Dr Performance truck engine when I messed on decking the block. I was decking the block at RayMac when I stored the truck and built it. Ray told me to take .004 off the block, I took .040 off. Huge mess up . I just chucked the piston's up and cut the decks. Boom I had 19 to one . It worked .



well going out to dyno the motor , will get back on tonight

Yeah Greg, almost there and so far away that the tunnel is still dark
:rofl:

I'm kinda at a point where general and basic understanding fall to the wayside of science and application of physics...and it becomes more abstract to me than just grasping at general concepts

Lol, its funny how sometimes our biggest mistakes lead to our greatest success, huh?
Accidental success is better than none, eh? And if you werent trying, it wouldn't have happened, so, "Bobs your uncle"


Let us know how the dyno run goes :thumb:

 

[COMP461]

Yeah Greg, almost there and so far away that the tunnel is still dark
:rofl:

I'm kinda at a point where general and basic understanding fall to the wayside of science and application of physics...and it becomes more abstract to me than just grasping at general concepts

Lol, its funny how sometimes our biggest mistakes lead to our greatest success, huh?
Accidental success is better than none, eh? And if you werent trying, it wouldn't have happened, so, "Bobs your uncle"


Let us know how the dyno run goes :thumb:

all you have to do is learn one concept at a time

 

[GSXRTURBO1]

A lot of good info on here lately :thumb:

 

[Dave c]

Wade asked me to search his old screen name under nitrous, I lol'd at the banter.

Good tech otherwise. Had no idea how good of friends him and sting were.

http://www.duramaxdiesels.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11257&highlight=nitrous

 

[Stingpuller]

I little question

I have yet to burn up a single piston or hurt my motors with nitrous. Not one! Who else can say that.

 

[GSXRTURBO1]

I have yet to burn up a single piston or hurt my motors with nitrous. Not one! Who else can say that.

You are talking diesel, correct?

Your statement is impressive on it's own, but if you're referring to gas engines as well then it's even MORE impressive! :thumb:

 

[Dave c]

We talked about this recently , Wade has never hurt anything in the engine due to nitrous, now I'm sure his wallet hurts, cause that stuff is expensive.

 

[Stingpuller]

Nitrous

Wade i'm pretty sure your not on the same pistons as you started with. I seem to remember you missing a race or two rebuild a few times. Mine are the same from 2009. Racing from 2006 until now I have broken one crank (still in one piece just cracked) and nothing else. I even reuse the bearings normally. 2013 I put new rings and bearings but could have reused them. Gas motor is another story I have hurt a few.