Knife-edging the crank??

juddski88

Freedom Diesel
Jul 1, 2008
4,651
116
63
Chesterfield, Mass.
easy question: does this allow for more oil displacement at no real longevity costs?

complex question: would this aid in longer duration, high rpm oil cooling in an engine such as Casper's?
 

Redbone

but this one goes to 11
May 1, 2008
261
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Indy, IN
Knife edging is done mainly to reduce windage in the pan. Also reduces the rotating mass of the crank. I've never really thought about the cooling aspects of it.
 

ROGUE GTS

Member
Apr 30, 2008
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16
These things don't really turn enough rpm to warrant it.

The main advantage is shedding oil from the crank and keeping airation down. A high rpm small block can hold nearly a quart of oil just stuck to the crank. :eek:
 
May 21, 2008
1,141
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Stephenville Tx
Wouldn't heavy metal have to be put back in to the crank to get the balance back? If so, would the above statement not be true??

Depends on how heavy or light the bob weight is. I could see knife edging helping in any race application.I would think you would want it like how we build gas drag engines, the lighter the bob weight more rpm.Maybe I am looking at this wrong since it's diesel engine.
 

Redbone

but this one goes to 11
May 1, 2008
261
0
0
Indy, IN
also if there was less drag on oil, wouldnt it be more efficient torque even though lighter?

The crank acts on the oil in a couple of ways.

Windage, or turbulence in the oil pan caused by the crank, sloshes the oil around, aerating or trapping air bubbles. This makes the oil frothy which is hard on pumps, etc. Where there is air, there is no oil.

The second is windage actually pulls the oil from the pan and it clings to the crank. Like Rogue said above, some situations could have a quart or so stuck to the crank. The oil on the crank is like a taffy machine. Pulling this wad of oil around saps off a few HP. If you can minimize the clinging oil, you'll free those few HP back up.

Some high RPM engine builders fix a piece of thin metal profiled around the crank counterweights in the oil pan to scrape or wipe the oil from the crank.
 

mytmousemalibu

Cut your ride, sissy!
Apr 12, 2008
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Kansas
Helping "aero dynamics" of the crank is a good thing. It will remove weight from your counterweights which could be equalized by lighting the crankpin end or if you want heavier, add mallory slugs to the conterweights. Wonder is you could simply run a heavier balencer and or flywheel? Kinda like the principal of making your vehicle as light as possible so you can place the weight where you want! If i ever get to build my motor, this is on the list of things to do. Bull-nose the leading edge and knife the trailing edge. And also run a windage/scraper to shed as much oil away from the rotating mass. There are also oil shedding coatings avalible. Ultimatly a dry-sump would be the hot ticket.
 

juddski88

Freedom Diesel
Jul 1, 2008
4,651
116
63
Chesterfield, Mass.
Helping "aero dynamics" of the crank is a good thing. It will remove weight from your counterweights which could be equalized by lighting the crankpin end or if you want heavier, add mallory slugs to the conterweights. Wonder is you could simply run a heavier balencer and or flywheel? Kinda like the principal of making your vehicle as light as possible so you can place the weight where you want! If i ever get to build my motor, this is on the list of things to do. Bull-nose the leading edge and knife the trailing edge. And also run a windage/scraper to shed as much oil away from the rotating mass. There are also oil shedding coatings avalible. Ultimatly a dry-sump would be the hot ticket.

hmmm very interesting, whats the clearances like on these "scrapers"....seems like all the turbulence may cause them to break or something..i've never heard of it.
 

Trippin

SoCal Diesel
Aug 10, 2006
663
2
0
Quick test:

Next time your in the bath tub and have some spare time on your hands try running you hand through the water palm first. Then try the same test with your hand rotated 90 degrees so the little finger is the leading edge. Notice the difference in resistance as well as how much less the second test disturbs the water?
 

juddski88

Freedom Diesel
Jul 1, 2008
4,651
116
63
Chesterfield, Mass.
Quick test:

Next time your in the bath tub and have some spare time on your hands try running you hand through the water palm first. Then try the same test with your hand rotated 90 degrees so the little finger is the leading edge. Notice the difference in resistance as well as how much less the second test disturbs the water?

i understand this phenomenon but trying to put all the info together: have a blunt leading edge will allow for the oil to be dispersed better than a full knife-edge....but how blunt is too blunt to make it not worth it? also, any theories on the cooling effects? KB, Pat, Guy?
 
May 21, 2008
1,141
0
0
Stephenville Tx
Helping "aero dynamics" of the crank is a good thing. It will remove weight from your counterweights which could be equalized by lighting the crankpin end or if you want heavier, add mallory slugs to the conterweights. Wonder is you could simply run a heavier balencer and or flywheel? Kinda like the principal of making your vehicle as light as possible so you can place the weight where you want! If i ever get to build my motor, this is on the list of things to do. Bull-nose the leading edge and knife the trailing edge. And also run a windage/scraper to shed as much oil away from the rotating mass. There are also oil shedding coatings avalible. Ultimatly a dry-sump would be the hot ticket.[/QUOTE]

Yes Sir!
 

mytmousemalibu

Cut your ride, sissy!
Apr 12, 2008
2,230
0
0
Kansas
hmmm very interesting, whats the clearances like on these "scrapers"....seems like all the turbulence may cause them to break or something..i've never heard of it.

Well companies like Jegs and Summit, etc, sell them. There trim to fit so you hafta do some cutting and grinding to fit them. My buddie has one from Milodon in his shop for a SBC and its fairly thick. You just hafta contour the shape to the shape of the rods and crank and such so its close to the rotating assembly but you hafta account for thermal expansion changes but i've seen them pretty close to touching! They usually mount to the oil pan rail. When i worked at Patterson Racing, almost all of there motors are dry sumped super-comp motors, like 60-70,000 dollar motors! They build some of the most winning motors in NHRA. Now in these dry-sump pans were a Stef's windage screen and a small angled piece of aluminum welded to the pans inside edge for a scraper but wasn't contoured to the shape at all. This Stefs screen has a single direction diamond shaped holes that allow oil to whip through it and not come back, think of a cheese grator! No reason we cant applie this to a duramax, even in a wet sump, im sure some folkes have!

Now the bullnoseing and knifeing... Look at an airplanes wing, blunt leading edge, sharp trailing edge. Theres plent of good examples to compare this to as the same principal! I can only speculate but a sharp leading edge would prolly create a more disturbed path of resistance inside and a more rounded would travel smoother and you would want a sharp trailing edge as not to create a vaccum/suction effect behind the weight, as this would defeat the reason of doing it, it would likly pull oil behind it. But anything has to be better than square edges! IMO
 

Leadfoot

Needs Bigger Tires!
Dec 27, 2006
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Western MA
www.matpa.org
hmmm very interesting, whats the clearances like on these "scrapers"....seems like all the turbulence may cause them to break or something..i've never heard of it.

I'm not sure the exact measuerments, but I know I have a windage tray and scraper on my BBC. We had to profile the scraper as it has extra material on it. We used a felt tipped pen to trace the counter of the crank weights and also used it as a "feeler guage".

I know when Blan was working on the motor for the Hammer he used a much tighter tolerance... I will check with Steve and see what he recommends.

I know we talked about windage, resistance, etc. but I don't think cooling came into the equation. Dry sumps help with windage and resistance, and also allow for easier external cooling and higher capacities which in turn help cooling as well.

More surface area usually transfers heat more effectively. Removing surface area and material from the crank would decrease heat transfer but the crank is not where the high sources of heat come from. I would be willing to bet contouring or knife edging of the crank would have a miniscule effect on oil temps one way or another.
 

Leadfoot

Needs Bigger Tires!
Dec 27, 2006
899
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Western MA
www.matpa.org
Chris you dont have any pictures of your BB build do you?
Also, hows the rods coming along?

I have one cell phone picture of the short block from the topside. The lifter valley had all casting flash removed, the windows were deburred and smoothed, and a coating was put on (the browish color under where the intake would be) to smooth the casting to help facilitate oil drainage. It's tough to tell from the pic, but there is a non smooth abrasive finish on the tops of the pistons (which I see other people are discussing in the Bonneville Engine thread).

Unfortunately my luck this weekend was terrible and not only did I smash my diesel up, but I took out the rings on the BBC :mad: so unfortunately I will be pulling that motor down and will be able to take a lot of pics. I have two trucks and neither are driveable :(

Motor front.bmp


As for the rods, I haven't heard much. After some of things I've been hearing, I don't think it's the right way to go though.