10L1000 VB trouble

ikeG

ikeG

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Apr 19, 2011
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Ive got another one of these Next Gen DIY kits here. Assembled it all, same as the last one. Put it in and it is in reverse and park at the same time. Then reverse on the shifter is neutral, neutral on the shifter is drive. No codes. I put a call in to next gen several times thursday, friday, as well as today with no help. Ive since torn it back out and apart and i cannot find anything i did wrong. Is anyone familiar enough with them to point me to which circuit would cause this? Im tempted to put 1 half back stock and try it again, just to narrow it down. There are no mods to these kits that are irreversable.
 
kidturbo

kidturbo

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Jul 21, 2010
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I'd love to say I have no idea, but last couple months, have broken 10L 80/90's electronically in every way possible... lol.

While I haven't touched a 1000 yet, range position is transmitted back to the BCM over CANbus from the TCM. So your TCM believes it's in the gear stating on a scanner, or dash. Also not positive if that has a 6 wire or the new 4 wire range. But the new style reads 0-100% PWM duty values rather than the old PRN in voltages.
 
ikeG

ikeG

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Finally got to talk to the owner or whoever at next gen. He's extremely knowledgeable and knew immediately the 2 possible causes of my symptoms. It ended up being sticky shift valves. His latest kit doesn't give you the option to opt out of these shift valves like the last kit I did. They are billet steel valves that replace the OE aluminum. I basically needed to "hone" the bores, using the valves themselves. Or worst case, a round brush.
Anyways, I cycled all 6 valves a whole bunch and then reassembled the VB. It's doing great now. There really wasn't anything I noticed as far as them sticking but what he said made sense.

Sent from my SM-G990U2 using Tapatalk
 
kidturbo

kidturbo

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I was shared this couple days back by someone who's been playing with 10L stuff and big power for a couple years. Answers one main question I had in first couple minutes. The 10L1000 is Allison in name only. These are basically a 10L 80/90 with scaled up internals. Which one would typically say great. But they share the same valve bodies with other 10L's. And from everyone swapping or turning I've spoken two about these 10L units, GM is chasing the problem much like they did the CP4's. New part # appearing every other week. However there is way more of these bodies to be replaced, and aftermarket does seem to be leading the charge on this.

Not endorsing anyone, but I am currently working with a one of these modified valve bodies in a Frankenstein Ford/GM 10L90 build. Big power Holley EFI controlling T87A in a stand alone mode. It recently ate a clutch set, due to what we think was a body leak. Upon inspection, it had also deposited clutch material in one of the solenoids, and thus wedged the slider. Some crazy flow routing, such as controling flow to and from the converter, and I beleive that was the valve it stuck. So they upgraded the body, and I'm back to leaning what normal shift times and slip are supose to look like..

As most of you know, tranmissions are about as far outside my wheelhouse as ya can get. So when I keep hearing similar reports from multiple tuners and racers about these things randomly freaking out and eathing themselves, it must be wide spread.. Since most of the case I've encountered are in swaps, everyone is questioning the torque data.. As they are heavly torque based and adjust shifts times on it. And unlike our old Allison 6 speeds, these new 10's don't seem to limp on slips. Ever.. You're probably gonna smell it before the TCM tells you there's a problem. I could be wrong on 1000's if the OS is way different, but I am betting not. What's worse, Ford's don't seem to suffer from this problem, and the only big difference is TCM and valve body...

Source: https://youtu.be/m2GwZ0JPAMM?si=Fy9Q-B4K9chv2T34
 
Chevy1925

Chevy1925

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Oct 21, 2009
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kidturbo said:
I was shared this couple days back by someone who's been playing with 10L stuff and big power for a couple years. Answers one main question I had in first couple minutes. The 10L1000 is Allison in name only. These are basically a 10L 80/90 with scaled up internals. Which one would typically say great. But they share the same valve bodies with other 10L's. And from everyone swapping or turning I've spoken two about these 10L units, GM is chasing the problem much like they did the CP4's. New part # appearing every other week. However there is way more of these bodies to be replaced, and aftermarket does seem to be leading the charge on this.

Not endorsing anyone, but I am currently working with a one of these modified valve bodies in a Frankenstein Ford/GM 10L90 build. Big power Holley EFI controlling T87A in a stand alone mode. It recently ate a clutch set, due to what we think was a body leak. Upon inspection, it had also deposited clutch material in one of the solenoids, and thus wedged the slider. Some crazy flow routing, such as controling flow to and from the converter, and I beleive that was the valve it stuck. So they upgraded the body, and I'm back to leaning what normal shift times and slip are supose to look like..

As most of you know, tranmissions are about as far outside my wheelhouse as ya can get. So when I keep hearing similar reports from multiple tuners and racers about these things randomly freaking out and eathing themselves, it must be wide spread.. Since most of the case I've encountered are in swaps, everyone is questioning the torque data.. As they are heavly torque based and adjust shifts times on it. And unlike our old Allison 6 speeds, these new 10's don't seem to limp on slips. Ever.. You're probably gonna smell it before the TCM tells you there's a problem. I could be wrong on 1000's if the OS is way different, but I am betting not. What's worse, Ford's don't seem to suffer from this problem, and the only big difference is TCM and valve body...

Source: https://youtu.be/m2GwZ0JPAMM?si=Fy9Q-B4K9chv2T34
Click to expand...

Mike stated a bunch of that many years ago. The trans was brought to allison to put their stamp on it after changing a few things to differentiate it from the ford trans.

In 2020 i did a lot of pressure measuring on the stock trans to see what it was doing for both mike and steve younger (ratiotek). At the time, there was no tcm tuning. I ran the first goerend triple disc converter with steves first valve body kit. The vb kit bumped pressures up 20psi across the board (during shifts, holding gears, etc) but we knew the clutches would not hold. Mike knew this trans would never actually “limp” because gm implemented the same type of strategy as they did on the 6 speed allison in the l5p… the tcm will see some slip, tell the ecm to pull back some power and keep going. That started in the lml and got worse as the years went by.

Steve wanted to design an E clutch apply piston that allowed one more clutch in the unit, problem was you wouldnt reliably be able to hold 600+ hp still even with that. The drums and parts out there still are not enough. Tcm tuning helps now that they have that but they guys making big power on the 10 speed is only temporary, the trans is never going to hold up as long as a built 6 speed at the same power. The big plus of the tcm tuning is you get smooth shifts while greatly increasing pressures unlike steves high pressure kit where it will beat you up a bit under part throttle shifts

Ive since pulled the triple disc converter as it causes injector timing issues unless you tune that out. Steves vb kit has been going strong with 40k on it since installed.

Sadly. The 10 speed sucks for holding power and i dont think its ever going to be on the same playing field as the 6 speed. Thats why my 2020 has stayed stock. I was going to build compounds for it, tune it and so on but after what mike and us found…. Nope
 
W

Woody35

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Jan 4, 2013
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Chevy1925 said:
Not without making your own vb. You cant bolt it to a gm trans. You need the ford tcm to run it too or custom os
Click to expand...
No doubt it would not be a direct swap or easy. I wonder how "different" the valve bodies are between other than the outward appearance. Do the Fords have issues holding power with their 10 Speeds? I don't run in those circles. Kinda seems like this turning into the 68RFE of the GM world. Six Speed swaps here we come.
 
Chevy1925

Chevy1925

don't know sh!t about IFS
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The fords have the same internal issues, clutch wise and bushing wise, as the gm trans. It aint much of an upgrade, if at all
 
G

gassux

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Mar 14, 2010
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i guess the gm plants shut down for a couple weeks? they are way behind on valve bodies into 2026
 
kidturbo

kidturbo

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Chevy1925 said:
Not without making your own vb. You cant bolt it to a gm trans. You need the ford tcm to run it too or custom os
Click to expand...
That first part is what I'm still looking to confirm. Haven't spoken to anyone yet with both both cases opened up to compare holes. But I have all the other electrical guts including a GM replacement Gen1 body on the bench, wired together with Gen2 internal harness. Have a spare connector for that extra safety solenoid in Gen2, which is whole different bag of tricks when swapping TCM back to T87A from T93. I'm about to shitcan the body and replace it with handful of 12V LED's I found for each valve. While it's neat to HEAR the valves engage or "vibrate," thinking visual repsonse be helpful. They litterly feather these cluthes On and Off based on Black Magic...

Range switch and speed sensors are identical all models. So we know the Ford use the same Current Driven sensors, betting the solenoids use same PWM control structure. Based off Fueltech and MOTEC stand alone work, I'm willing to bet the solenods work the same also. Which brings me to the point of control. The HPT work so far with T87A files in the gasses is yeilding less than steller real world results. Table values mapped don't always seem work as listed. So guessing they haven't fully sorted the bins.. I haven't been shared any 10L A2l's yet, and lack of control data is no good in this 100% drive by wire stuff..

I did run into someone who's approaching this controll issue like the EU guys have with the ZF 8spd.. Built his own TCM, and hooled up pressue sensors to the actual transmssion. Quickly proving that they will shift fast and hard if told too. But his best work so far has been in logging the pressure drops upon shifts. GM is 100% fly by seat of the paints. TCM say it has 250psi with 1.5Amps of current, so that's what's we have. His gauge logging shows a drop in line pressue before the clutch starts to apply. Thus scewing GM's calibration tables they base shift times off of.. And they don't care if it slips on top of not knowing the clutch pressure. These are the tables we need to adjust..

Couple posts below this he has graph of the line pressue drop on up shifts, and how he is adjusting for it by spiking.

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