Potential Project Ideas

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cumminsram96

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So I've been kicking around ideas for a new project of some kind and came up with something I would like some input on:
What about throwing a duramax/allison into an older chevrolet 3/4 ton 4x4? I was looking at a regular cab long bed model, probably a mid 80's model, those big square trucks look sharp when done right. I know the factory front axle would need replacing, and I was thinking about boxing the whole frame in. Can a Duramax be wired to run on it's own just hooked to some Autometer gauges in the factory dash?
Just looking for comments and/or suggestions.
 
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UNBROKEN

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Like this ?

This was at TS 2 or 3 years ago. It had the newer dash cluster wired in also.
The motor fits very nice....and this one ran pretty damned good too.
DSC01356_Medium_.JPG
 
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cumminsram96

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Yes something like that.
He put the entire dash in it out of the donor truck? It seems like that would require a ton of fab work and plastic work to make all that dash fit in that older truck. Seems to me like it would be much easier to just bypass or remove all the factory gauge wiring and just run new Autometer gauges. I guess it would be a stand alone engine kinda thing, anyone know the owner of the Orange Crush drag truck, how does he have his truck set up interior and gauge wise?
 
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UNBROKEN

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I don't remember it being the whole dash...just the cluster.
As I understand it....the motor needs the cluster there to run right ?
Maybe that was the case back then and things have progressed since then ?

I honstly don't know....I've never done a dmax swap. I'm just going off a hazy memory of what that guy told me a long time ago.

It was a very cool truck though....got a lot of pics taken that weekend.
 
SmokeShow

SmokeShow

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That truck pictured was built by a fellow Kentuckian. He built it for pulling in DHRA WS. By the time he got it together, it took a good bit mroe than a tuning only truck to be competitive even in that class and he just wasn't wanting to spend anymore money on it so he unloaded it. Last I knew, a guy in TN had it.

Anyways, it has the duramax gauge cluster stuck in the 80s model dash where the old gauge cluster was. The cluster wasn't done real pretty but functioned properly. They mated the duramax to GM NV4500 and np205 transfer case and retained the GM D60 up front and good ol' 14BFF out back. It is/was AWESOME! Painted it the Arrival Blue that GM used from 03-04 and looks spectacular. IIRC, it also had the steering wheel/column in it from the donor truck. It was right around the time EFI Live was coming out so it wasn't as well known at the time. They used custom tuning from TTS to get it running.

There is a thread in here where a guy is working on doing this exact swap to his 80s model truck with LLY duramax. I'll get the link in a moment.

I'm also doing one in my 83 GMC CC SB. I go back and forth on exactly how I'm gonna do mine. I have acquired a 2wd 06 D/A donor truck to rob the powertrain from BUT am considering using my complete 02 chassis and basically do a body swap. :eek: The newer frames are a fair bit stronger and are already configured for the DMAX. :D Thing is, the frame in the 83 is in spectacular shape and was cut down to a shortbed crew cab and I hate to get rid of it. Decisions decisions.

As for your questions... Yes, the Duramax can be wired up such that it doesn't have to have the duramax gauge cluster in it but rather aftermarket AutoMeter-type electric gauges. PPE can modify the wiring harness to be pretty much a plug and play affair for you.

There's several options on the drivetrain. You can (A) do like you said and run the D/A/NP261HD transfer case from a 01+ truck and swap a Ford front D60 in, (B) run a divorced transfer case (NP205 from an old Dodge or International) behind a 2wd allison that drops on the correct side for the GM front (C) Atlas makes a transfercase that will bolt right up to a 4wd Allison. (D) SunCoast makes a billet tailhousing for the allison that can be setup to run pretty much any transfer case - I'd go for a mated GM NP205 in this case so you don't have to worry about making a Ford D60 work, (E) I'm being told Advanced Adapters is also about to release an adapter to allow you to mate an NP205 to a 4wd allison (F) run a NV4500 5-spd with an NP205 mated to it and keep the GM front.


I had planned to do the divorced transfer case behind the 2wd allison since I got a 2wd donor but mine will primarily be a sled pulling truck and I'm being told that the NP205, while renowned for its strength in off-roading vehicles, is not gonna handle the stress and torque it'll see in a diesel pulling truck without substantial money spent. Kyle Michaels runs one in his Super Street truck but it has very expensive SCS billet parts inside it to make it last and is no longer selectable - it's fulltime 4wd LO. So that's kinda why I'm considering some other options - like the body swap - for the stouter transfer case and frame. If it's just gonna be a street/show truck and not see any motorsports competition then I wouldn't hesitate to put a NP205 or even better, an Atlas transfer case behind it. Ideally I think it'd be best to get a complete 4wd donor truck and convert the front to a Ford D60. REGARDLESS, don't just buy and engine and transmission. There are too many little things you'll wish you had from a donor truck once you dive into it. You DEFINATELY want to get a complete donor truck with everything still intact IMO.


There is a guy selling a "conversion manual CD" on eBay. His seller name is "pussow". I've purchased it, more for the engine mount designs than anything, but have yet to take a look at it. For the price of it, even if you get just one piece of useful information from it, it's worth it. He put it together while putting an 06 LLY (basically a detuned LBZ) and 4L80E from a van in his 90/91 V3500 show truck. His truck is sharp and the install looks good IMO. Like I said, to me, the engine mount diagrams are worth the purcahse price if I stick with the old frame.



Good luck!!
 
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cumminsram96

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Thanks for the help. It sounds a little more involved than I first thought. My idea was to basically make the motor a stand-alone piece in an older body. It wouldn't be a daily driver, but it would retain some comforts like heat and AC. Other than that it seems like the Duramax could be made to just run on it's own with just a link to the accelerator pedal and the ignition switch, or am I thinking too simple?
 
SmokeShow

SmokeShow

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I really can't remember exactly how it they made it work. I know some of the trans used Dodge parts and some were GM parts (most specifically the bell housing). IIRC, the clutch was a SBC double disk for a dodge. They used a big dodge input and the rest was GM. Not real sure about which pressure plate to use or any spacers/adapters that may be needed to be sure the starter and clutch work properly. I'll ask them and get back to you on the particulars though.

C-ya
 
SmokeShow

SmokeShow

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Talked to one of them that helped build that blue truck at the top about the nv4500 behind the DMAX.

He says use an NV4500 from a 98+ GM or at least put the bellhousing from one on a Dodge nv4500, a duramax single mass flywheel, dodge/cummins clutch and pressure plate, upgrade to the bigger input shaft if turning it up pretty high, and Advanced Adapters makes an adapter for mating up the NP205 to the NV4500.

Hope that helps.
 
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cumminsram96

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I think for my particular project I would rather use an Allison, most likely a six speed for the bigger OD, I can run bigger gearing in the axles.
I'm also on a budget, aren't we all, so buying a complete frame from a newer truck and just putting an older body isn't too likely. My plans are to buy a mid 80s truck that is pretty beat. The aftermarket as come so far for those trucks now, with places like Classic Industries you could build one from almost nothing, as long as you had a frame.
I will be tearing the truck down to a bare frame and starting from scratch almost, I know it's not cost effective either, but I think my wife would be more willing to let me spend some here and there over a longer period rather than all at once.
Now assuming I found a duramax and an allison what else am I gonna need to put them in, not concerning the rest of the drivetrain, what would I need to consider to just get the engine and tranny in and functioning? I saw the PPE hotrod wiring kit, say I used that, can the motor still be tuned with EFI live? What about the transmission, how would I tune the TCM?
Sorry for the questions, this is an idea I have been wanting to start for awhile.
 
SmokeShow

SmokeShow

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Yeah, I'm virtually certain you can still tune the engine and transmission with EFI Live even with the PPE harness. You'll still need the OBD port for either one and to my knowledge, the PPE wouldn't lock the ECM.


Did you watch that video in the eBay ad I posted? It went over everything you'd need to get the engine to start in a different vehicle. You'll at least need the complete wiring harnesses, have them modified for your application, need the custom tuned ECM to eliminate the VATS and maybe some other things specific to the conversion, TCM, and throttle pedal assembly with the TPS et al attached and a couple of fuses and relays. If you use the electronic shift transfer case from a duramax truck, I'm told you'd also need the BCM whereas you wouldn't if you used the mechanically shifted transfer case from a duramax truck. In addition to whats in that video, you'd need to come up with a way to control the transmission - shift lever, tap shift buttons and Tow/Haul buttons. I know it's been done by PPE without the actual buttons and levers from a duramax truck but I have no idea how they did it and when I asked about it, I got the feeling it might not be ready for public release yet? Otherwise, you'll need the steering column from a duramax truck so that you have a functioning shift lever with the tap shift and T/H buttons.



Now you're kinda seeing why it's nice to be able to get a complete donor truck rather than trying to piece-mill it all together and hope it all works together. It's all the little things you have to go after that might make it irritating and too combursome without a complete donor vehicle. Maybe you are patient enough to locate just exactly what you are looking for at the moment and not need it all sitting in front of you in a donor vehicle, that's up to you. I had purchased and engine and transmission with complete wiring harnesses et al and immediately started trying to locate the additional parts I'd need to make it all work and got exhausted quickly. Within a month, I traded the engine and trans I had bought plus a little more money for a complete donor truck.


C-ya
 
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duramax3388

duramax3388

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cool thats kinda along the lines i was thinking but i was thinking that it would be a gm bellhouseing so that it would bolt up to the duramax. still not sure the 205 would be the best for anything but a full out pulling truck to much money to keep it alive and still only have the low side to use
 
SmokeShow

SmokeShow

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duramax3388 said:
cool thats kinda along the lines i was thinking but i was thinking that it would be a gm bellhouseing so that it would bolt up to the duramax. still not sure the 205 would be the best for anything but a full out pulling truck to much money to keep it alive and still only have the low side to use
Click to expand...

It IS the GM bellhosuing you want/need. GM used the nv4500 in the 5-spd trucks from 98+. I think they are rated as a LD whereas the nv4500 in the Dodge/Cummins is rated as an HD. I can't remember the difference as to why that is. So, you either need to get the complete transmission from a GM truck so it already has the bellhousing that will bolt up to pretty much any GM, including the duramax, and use the large Dodge input shaft and clutch OR swap the bellhousings on an NV4500 from a Dodge to that of a GM.

Unless you are building a truck for competition that requires more than 500rwhp, I think the NP205 will survive with a few updates to the output shaft and bearings and it'll still retain the ability to select between 2wd and 4HI and 4LO like normal. It's just that north of 500rwhp, the torque would become too much for the gears and internals and require the bigger billet stuff that SCS puts in them. I don't have a real understanding of what all they change in them that prohibits it from being a selectable case but it definately makes them super stout if it stands up to Kyle Michael's super stock truck! Granted he DID grenade one first time out with it but he admits that was due to an error in assembly and has not hurt one since installing one that is assembled properly. He runs a divorced NP205 behind an LBZ and 6-spd allison. For the record.


Hope that clarifies that a little bit.
 
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