Duramax Diesels Forum Truck of the Week
  #31  
Old 03-15-2009, 01:21 AM
Turbo Buick 6's Avatar
Turbo Buick 6 Turbo Buick 6 is offline
...
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NE Pa
Posts: 3,893
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by duratothemax View Post
so.....? If it works, who cares?
Someone who wants to do things correctly.

Not trying to offend anyone either.

There are some people that find quality more important than cost....
__________________
4.5 CLUB
Member #2


06 2500HD LLY reg cab 4wd


Ever feel like lying, down inside a grave
Listen to the elegy, a buyer of the hate
Ever dance beside the devil, taste the barrel of a gauge,
Ever pull the trigger, the light begins to fade
Feel like slipping away
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 03-15-2009, 09:35 AM
duratothemax's Avatar
duratothemax duratothemax is offline
<--- slippery roads
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 7,836
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbo Buick 6 View Post
Someone who wants to do things correctly.

Not trying to offend anyone either.

There are some people that find quality more important than cost....
QUALITY means reliability and performance that delivers. Nathan's kits have both and have been proven successful for over 4 years, regardless of whether he uses fusion welded unobtanium for his piping or not.

Build your trans, get your truck running mid 11's on fuel only with a single CP3, and THEN your twins will start to get everyone's attention....which could theoretically put Nathan out of business because your twins would have the top-notch performance to back up the beautiful craftsmanship [that nathans twins apparently dont have because they use pot metal piping ]

ben
__________________

2012 Denali - R&D testbed for upcoming new products.....
2005 Silverado LT - Blown up/broken too many engines and parts to care about making it fast anymore, so its back to mostly stock - The best names in the industry for parts/advice/help...MikeL.Guy-SoCal.Rob-ATP.Evan-Limitless.McRat.BigDipper.Bobo.Tony-RRDP.Fingers.Eric-MA.EFILive...


BT DieselWorks, LLC - EFILive tuning - Duramax/Allison/gasser STANDALONE HARNESSES - Allison lockup controllers - Allison tapshift kits - Digital DSP-5 switches - full assortment of great electronic improvements and gadgets for your GM truck/SUV

All products available for sale through our online store at www.btdieselworks.com

Be sure to "like" us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/BTDWorks
Be sure to "follow" us on Instagram @btdieselworks

Last edited by duratothemax; 03-15-2009 at 09:36 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 03-15-2009, 01:26 PM
Turbo Buick 6's Avatar
Turbo Buick 6 Turbo Buick 6 is offline
...
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NE Pa
Posts: 3,893
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by duratothemax View Post
QUALITY means reliability and performance that delivers. Nathan's kits have both and have been proven successful for over 4 years, regardless of whether he uses fusion welded unobtanium for his piping or not.

I dont care what someone else does. I don't use others work to do my own. Maybe MS will work....but so would 7 lug nuts...because they will work as well



Build your trans, get your truck running mid 11's on fuel only with a single CP3, and THEN your twins will start to get everyone's attention....which could theoretically put Nathan out of business because your twins would have the top-notch performance to back up the beautiful craftsmanship [that nathans twins apparently dont have because they use pot metal piping ]

ben
HMMMM, I dont need to. I'm not try ing to put anyone out of business. I never said his stuff is junk. I know very little about it. As far as I am concerned it doesn't exisist to me. I don't use others work for my own benifit. Pot metal piping huh? I never said that, but if you must call it that, I use pot metal piping for just about everything but my hot crossover. Different materials are made for different service condidtions, just because it doesn't conform to the requirements of one application doesn't make it junk or useless.


A small bit of codes and standards

Material selection will generally be based on the design temperature and service conditions
in accordance with the following:
• Carbon steel piping materials will be used for design temperatures less than or equal to
750 F.
• ASTM A335 Grade P22 or P91 steel piping materials will be used for design
temperatures greater than 750 F.
__________________
4.5 CLUB
Member #2


06 2500HD LLY reg cab 4wd


Ever feel like lying, down inside a grave
Listen to the elegy, a buyer of the hate
Ever dance beside the devil, taste the barrel of a gauge,
Ever pull the trigger, the light begins to fade
Feel like slipping away

Last edited by Turbo Buick 6; 03-15-2009 at 01:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 03-15-2009, 03:24 PM
JoshH's Avatar
JoshH JoshH is offline
Daggum farm truck
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Texas!!!
Posts: 12,806

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by paint94979 View Post
seriously why do you act like such a ***** when someone says anything about Rob, Nathan or hell even Cole. You always get weird when someone mentions your buddies.
Uh, ok...
__________________
06 Silverado 4x4 CC/SB

06 Express 2500 Duramax Van "The Dumpster"


Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 03-15-2009, 03:27 PM
duratothemax's Avatar
duratothemax duratothemax is offline
<--- slippery roads
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 7,836
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbo Buick 6 View Post
Material selection will generally be based on the design temperature and service conditions
in accordance with the following:
• Carbon steel piping materials will be used for design temperatures less than or equal to
750 F.
• ASTM A335 Grade P22 or P91 steel piping materials will be used for design
temperatures greater than 750 F.
Im not even going to try to pretend I know what any of that means. You have successfully "oned me up" Paul so I will now refrain from posting any more in this thread as I am clearly in over my head.

ben


EDIT: one last question from non-engineer me, So its not good when its heated above 750*. We arent heating the metal up to 800+ degrees, we are just pushing air through it that is no more than probably 1100 degrees, and most of the time right around 800*. Its not like the metal is going to get that hot. Back when I used to have a built motor and beat on my truck a lot, I would do a really hard "mock-1/4 mile" hard run and then take a quick temp reading (sorry no I didnt measure the temp with a thermo-dynuculear-spectrometer NASA grade thermometer, it was with a Harbor Freight infrared laser pointer thing) of the pipe itself (NOT the air going through it, we all know that was probably above 800*), and it was nowhere near 800 degrees.
__________________

2012 Denali - R&D testbed for upcoming new products.....
2005 Silverado LT - Blown up/broken too many engines and parts to care about making it fast anymore, so its back to mostly stock - The best names in the industry for parts/advice/help...MikeL.Guy-SoCal.Rob-ATP.Evan-Limitless.McRat.BigDipper.Bobo.Tony-RRDP.Fingers.Eric-MA.EFILive...


BT DieselWorks, LLC - EFILive tuning - Duramax/Allison/gasser STANDALONE HARNESSES - Allison lockup controllers - Allison tapshift kits - Digital DSP-5 switches - full assortment of great electronic improvements and gadgets for your GM truck/SUV

All products available for sale through our online store at www.btdieselworks.com

Be sure to "like" us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/BTDWorks
Be sure to "follow" us on Instagram @btdieselworks

Last edited by duratothemax; 03-15-2009 at 03:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 03-15-2009, 03:38 PM
Turbo Buick 6's Avatar
Turbo Buick 6 Turbo Buick 6 is offline
...
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NE Pa
Posts: 3,893
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by duratothemax View Post
Im not even going to try to pretend I know what any of that means. You have successfully "oned me up" so I will now refrain from posting any more in this thread as I am clearly in over my head.

ben
Look at it. Your not over your head. Carbon steel is general A106. Many exhaust tubing is on a lower grade but we will "ASSume" that it is up to A106 specs. It states that it is not suited for over 750 F. This is power piping code, but with boiler code (section 9 work) we commonly use it up to 800F. If higher heat is going to be created you should step up to P22 (2 1/4% chrome) or even better yet P91 (9% chrome). But P91 is not feasable as it requires post weld heat treatment to relive stress.

There is no black majic to proper material selection. I just look at a chart based off of temp and pressure and the chart tells you the material that was intended for that use.
__________________
4.5 CLUB
Member #2


06 2500HD LLY reg cab 4wd


Ever feel like lying, down inside a grave
Listen to the elegy, a buyer of the hate
Ever dance beside the devil, taste the barrel of a gauge,
Ever pull the trigger, the light begins to fade
Feel like slipping away
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 03-15-2009, 03:42 PM
Turbo Buick 6's Avatar
Turbo Buick 6 Turbo Buick 6 is offline
...
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NE Pa
Posts: 3,893
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by duratothemax View Post
EDIT: one last question from non-engineer me, So its not good when its heated above 750*. We arent heating the metal up to 800+ degrees, we are just pushing air through it that is no more than probably 1100 degrees, and most of the time right around 800*. Its not like the metal is going to get that hot. Back when I used to have a built motor and beat on my truck a lot, I would do a really hard "mock-1/4 mile" hard run and then take a quick temp reading (sorry no I didnt measure the temp with a thermo-dynuculear-spectrometer NASA grade thermometer, it was with a Harbor Freight infrared laser pointer thing) of the pipe itself (NOT the air going through it, we all know that was probably above 800*), and it was nowhere near 800 degrees.
The pipe will get very close to the temp of the gas going through it. If you had taken the temp doing the run you would see this. Carbon steel will get even hotter than SS since it has a much higher thermal conductivity rate. Header wrap makes it even worse. Put a thermal probe on the pipe and run it and you will find the pipe temp gets very close to the gas temps.
__________________
4.5 CLUB
Member #2


06 2500HD LLY reg cab 4wd


Ever feel like lying, down inside a grave
Listen to the elegy, a buyer of the hate
Ever dance beside the devil, taste the barrel of a gauge,
Ever pull the trigger, the light begins to fade
Feel like slipping away
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 03-15-2009, 05:45 PM
WolfLLY's Avatar
WolfLLY WolfLLY is offline
Making Chips
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: AL
Posts: 4,225

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbo Buick 6 View Post
The pipe will get very close to the temp of the gas going through it. If you had taken the temp doing the run you would see this. Carbon steel will get even hotter than SS since it has a much higher thermal conductivity rate. Header wrap makes it even worse. Put a thermal probe on the pipe and run it and you will find the pipe temp gets very close to the gas temps.
X2, I've seen pipes melt cause they were wrapped.
__________________
LMM CCSB LTZ Z71. SoCal motor, s485/68r, 1078 Limitless converter, S&S 200s.


LB7 ECSB 4X4

Thanks to Evan@Limitless, Mark@Danville Performance, Josh Harris@Top Notch, and Corbin(crussel)
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 03-15-2009, 10:41 PM
JoshH's Avatar
JoshH JoshH is offline
Daggum farm truck
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Texas!!!
Posts: 12,806

Default

Ok, I just have one question. If mild steel is no good for this application, why have there been no failures of mild steel hot pipes? That's just got me

Obviously, SS tubing is better (I don't think anyone disagrees with that), but is it really a requirement? I don't see where that has been proven. That's the only problem I have.
__________________
06 Silverado 4x4 CC/SB

06 Express 2500 Duramax Van "The Dumpster"


Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 03-15-2009, 10:54 PM
Turbo Buick 6's Avatar
Turbo Buick 6 Turbo Buick 6 is offline
...
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NE Pa
Posts: 3,893
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshH View Post
Ok, I just have one question. If mild steel is no good for this application, why have there been no failures of mild steel hot pipes? That's just got me

Obviously, SS tubing is better (I don't think anyone disagrees with that), but is it really a requirement? I don't see where that has been proven. That's the only problem I have.
First off, no one has proven to me that everything out there is MS. I supose I could make some calls but I honestly don't care what others use. I have proven that it is not holding up with the destructive testing I had done on mine. No it hasn't failed but the report show fatigue and the material compisition on the inside of the pipe was begining to change.

There are also other factors. The hot pipe will grow about 3/8" when hot. I made my mount to flex to allow the large turbo to move as the pipe gets longer. Other piping can help lock the turbo in place. The more the turbo is locked into place the more stress when the hot pipe grows and the more prone to cracking it will be. I dont know how much flex others build into their setups, only mine.

My main point to be made is even if MS will last it is outside its parameters. Even if I had a crystal ball and it said MS would last I still wouldn't use it because everything I have been taught says its wrong. Its an extra $30

I'm sure you have gone the extra mile on something because you felt it was right
__________________
4.5 CLUB
Member #2


06 2500HD LLY reg cab 4wd


Ever feel like lying, down inside a grave
Listen to the elegy, a buyer of the hate
Ever dance beside the devil, taste the barrel of a gauge,
Ever pull the trigger, the light begins to fade
Feel like slipping away

Last edited by Turbo Buick 6; 03-15-2009 at 10:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 03-15-2009, 11:10 PM
JoshH's Avatar
JoshH JoshH is offline
Daggum farm truck
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Texas!!!
Posts: 12,806

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbo Buick 6 View Post
First off, no one has proven to me that everything out there is MS. I supose I could make some calls but I honestly don't care what others use. I have proven that it is not holding up with the destructive testing I had done on mine. No it hasn't failed but the report show fatigue and the material compisition on the inside of the pipe was begining to change.

There are also other factors. The hot pipe will grow about 3/8" when hot. I made my mount to flex to allow the large turbo to move as the pipe gets longer. Other piping can help lock the turbo in place. The more the turbo is locked into place the more stress when the hot pipe grows and the more prone to cracking it will be. I dont know how much flex others build into their setups, only mine.

My main point to be made is even if MS will last it is outside its parameters. Even if I had a crystal ball and it said MS would last I still wouldn't use it because everything I have been taught says its wrong. Its an extra $30

I'm sure you have gone the extra mile on something because you felt it was right
Paul, thank you for that explanation. I see where you are coming from, and for $30, it probably is a good idea to use 409 if you're building your own kit from scratch.
__________________
06 Silverado 4x4 CC/SB

06 Express 2500 Duramax Van "The Dumpster"


Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 03-15-2009, 11:13 PM
Turbo Buick 6's Avatar
Turbo Buick 6 Turbo Buick 6 is offline
...
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NE Pa
Posts: 3,893
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshH View Post
Paul, thank you for that explanation. I see where you are coming from, and for $30, it probably is a good idea to use 409 if you're building your own kit from scratch.
I don't have a clue but I would not be surprized if yours was 409 Its tough to tell since a magnet will stick to 409
__________________
4.5 CLUB
Member #2


06 2500HD LLY reg cab 4wd


Ever feel like lying, down inside a grave
Listen to the elegy, a buyer of the hate
Ever dance beside the devil, taste the barrel of a gauge,
Ever pull the trigger, the light begins to fade
Feel like slipping away
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 10-16-2009, 02:09 PM
steakman's Avatar
steakman steakman is offline
Diesel Nut...
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Barrie, Ontario
Posts: 68

Default

Quote:
..I was brought up to do things right and not half @ss them....and yes that means selecting the proper material for its intended use...
me too...


My intent here is not to say yea or nay on material selection. But TB6 is correct in saying as his ASME Sect II code comments stated, MS plate or piping is typically not recommended in applications over 800 deg F.

Thats not him saying it, that is The American Society of Mechanical Engineers saying it. That is the Steel industry saying iet. Now..does that mean you cant use mild steel piping for whatever application you wish to on your truck..nope .. Do what you want. You can use A53ERW or even A106 seamless..no problem, Its your truck. His comments were and are if I read correctly, simply a suggestion to all that wish to fabricate something on their own, is to research your base material first and select your welding filler metals second. It's the way industry goes about metal fabrication world wide.

When we as welder/fitters are trained to do this, you can bet that many have gone before us and found out the hard way that there is a reason for it. History is replete with examples of people using the worng filler metals or wrong materials for certain applications: Titanic - high Sulphur steels, Liberty ships - Cellulosic electrodes ... ad nauseatum.

There are real metallurgical reasons for using 409 types in hi temp service. Take a good look at the mufflers on 99% of all automobiles..they are all fabricated from this material. I have worked on robotic welding installations/training using our own 409Cb metal cored wires @ Walker in Ontario..they make mufflers for Toyota and others. Walker/Toyota didnt choose 409 because they liked the "number". They chose it for hi temp strength and creep resistance (+800F).


I have to agree with him in saying that if I were to build or for that matter anyone else where to build their own piping that was to carry gases at temperatures higher than 800 deg F the best candidate would in fact be ferritic 409 SS. (and yea it is magnetic but at 11% or so of Chroium cutting it with an oxy-fuel torch is a no go.). I would bet that MPI does in fact use a ferritic SS steel be it 409 or other similar material.


rgds,

stk
__________________
"the ghost"
06 GMC LBZ CCSB
...a bit of stuff...
174,035 miles

Last edited by steakman; 10-16-2009 at 02:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 10-16-2009, 05:48 PM
JoshH's Avatar
JoshH JoshH is offline
Daggum farm truck
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Texas!!!
Posts: 12,806

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steakman View Post
I would bet that MPI does in fact use a ferritic SS steel be it 409 or other similar material.


rgds,

stk
How much? I could use an easy buck or two
__________________
06 Silverado 4x4 CC/SB

06 Express 2500 Duramax Van "The Dumpster"


Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 10-17-2009, 12:54 PM
WolfLLY's Avatar
WolfLLY WolfLLY is offline
Making Chips
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: AL
Posts: 4,225

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshH View Post
How much? I could use an easy buck or two
How do you know you will win?
__________________
LMM CCSB LTZ Z71. SoCal motor, s485/68r, 1078 Limitless converter, S&S 200s.


LB7 ECSB 4X4

Thanks to Evan@Limitless, Mark@Danville Performance, Josh Harris@Top Notch, and Corbin(crussel)

Last edited by WolfLLY; 10-17-2009 at 12:55 PM. Reason: typo
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vB.Sponsors