Duramax Diesels Forum Truck of the Week
  #1  
Old 10-20-2014, 10:23 PM
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Default Cam Gear Loading on Crank

Been Thinking. Always a dangerous thing when I start thinking.
  1. How much torque does it take to make the cam gear slip on the cam shaft?
  2. We know the cam gear slips on the cam shaft because of all the damage to the alignment pins on stock cams. Even at stock power levels.
  3. The cam gears are helical
  4. Helical gears generate thrust on the shafts that drive them.
  5. How much thrust?
  6. Can we figure out how much axial thrust is being applied to the Crank?
  7. Knowing how much force it takes to move the cam gear, what is causing all that force. Valve train resistance or rattle from the crank.
  8. Lastly, are these additional forces enough to fatigue the crank?
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'04.5 EC/LB 4x4.
Howard Rods w/ oiler hole.
Oval Chambers and valve reliefs cut in Mahle Cast Pistons. 17.5:1
SoCal Stage 2 heads, 3388 Cam, Billet Flywheel, and harmonic balancer.
Danville 68mm VVT Turbo
100 over injectors.
PPE Dual CP3s
ProFab Castflow headers and uppipes.
100 PSIA MAP Sensor
Kennedy dual lift pump.

Dynoed 690 HP / 1200 TQ
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  #2  
Old 10-21-2014, 06:47 AM
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Interesting thoughts Jon! Ill add one to it...

Does the 2-piece cam gear on the LBZ+ have any effect on the above questions?
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Old 10-21-2014, 07:36 AM
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Still creaming the pin on the 2 piece cams IIRC.

It is interesting that the Duramax crank gears have the opposite helix as the Ford or Cummins.
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But.....What do I know.

'04.5 EC/LB 4x4.
Howard Rods w/ oiler hole.
Oval Chambers and valve reliefs cut in Mahle Cast Pistons. 17.5:1
SoCal Stage 2 heads, 3388 Cam, Billet Flywheel, and harmonic balancer.
Danville 68mm VVT Turbo
100 over injectors.
PPE Dual CP3s
ProFab Castflow headers and uppipes.
100 PSIA MAP Sensor
Kennedy dual lift pump.

Dynoed 690 HP / 1200 TQ
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  #4  
Old 10-21-2014, 07:57 AM
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  #5  
Old 10-21-2014, 10:17 AM
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Enough load to rip the teeth off the crank gear under big power when loaded down really hard... That one didn't break the crank or hurt the main bearings, weird isn't it. We blamed it on a bad heat treat of the gear but who knows?
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06 LBZ "White Lightning" 2wd rclb DP built motor Carillo, 15.25:1 "Finger" Oval Pistons w/reliefs, Socal Titanium upgraded springs on Stock heads w/Socal Billet injector holddowns,ARP, head-main-rocker studs,Soca Billet mains& Dampner, Chromoly pushrds, DP B72mmstg2R1VGT/StainlessDiesel S472/87 1.0SS triples, DHD Cast SuperHighflow intake, Exergy 14mmCP3 & 250%inj,Fass, PPE Race Valve PPE Manifolds, Banks Technicooler, AFE Boost tube, SC GMax6 Goerend "G" Grizzly Locker 3.42 gears, 1198+++hp 2k+ftlbs
Current fastest pass 1.520 60ft 6.705@108.95mph 1/8th 10.242@140.11mph
Current Standing 1/2Mile record holder for Diesel Pickup @ 159.8mph
Made it on fastest DMax list with Single VGT and single cp3 fuel only! 1.589 60ft 6.9291@103mph 1/8th 10.96@127.76mph
Stock motor best 11.277@119mph B68mmStg2R 250%inj 12mmcp3

Wife's tow rig-08 LMM SierraHD SLT2 "Stormy" CCSB murdered out TCTStg2 Exergy 12mmcp3 1/8th 9.11@77.51 1/4-14.174@96.8mph
06 GP GXP 5.3L StealthGray Metallic
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Last edited by MarkBroviak; 10-21-2014 at 10:36 AM.
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Old 10-21-2014, 10:13 PM
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To determine the break away force, we need to first know the clamping force on the gear without the pin/key.
The bolt is a M16x1.5 torqued to 173 ftlbs.

Looking this up in a table gives about 20,000 lb clamping force. OK
Now we need to know the effective diameter of the clamped area.
Total clamped area is 1.57" diameter with 1.1" diameter hole taken out of the middle (measured and rounded)

Effective diameter of the clamped area is about 1.355"
The resistance to moving the clamped part is between .5 (dry) and .25 (oiled) of the clamping force for steel on steel.

In this case that gives us between 5,000 lbs and 10,000 lbs of force resisting at 1.355" diameter or .6775" radius.

The pitch diameter of the cam gear is about 7" or 3.5" radius.

So. at the cam teeth, we are seeing in excess of 1,000 lbs (oiled) and probably more than 2,000 lbs (dry) of force.

Our poor 5mm pin is only able to hold back about 1400 lbs of force at most on it's own. So at 1.1" diameter, it only adds another 220lbs or so at the cam gear teeth.

A 10mm long key gives us at least 9000 lbs at 1.1 diameter or an additional ~1500 lbs of resistance at the cam teeth. Essentially doubling the holding capacity of the cam-gear connection.

I know of no-one that has sheared a keyed cam, so we can safely say the forces are less than about 3500 lbs at the cam gear teeth.
__________________
But.....What do I know.

'04.5 EC/LB 4x4.
Howard Rods w/ oiler hole.
Oval Chambers and valve reliefs cut in Mahle Cast Pistons. 17.5:1
SoCal Stage 2 heads, 3388 Cam, Billet Flywheel, and harmonic balancer.
Danville 68mm VVT Turbo
100 over injectors.
PPE Dual CP3s
ProFab Castflow headers and uppipes.
100 PSIA MAP Sensor
Kennedy dual lift pump.

Dynoed 690 HP / 1200 TQ
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  #7  
Old 10-21-2014, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fingers View Post
.........

I know of no-one that has sheared a keyed cam, so we can safely say the forces are less than about 3500 lbs at the cam gear teeth.
Brad Makinen just did in his Willy's motor at Texas World Finals.
He is running a bunch of extra pumps and whatnot off his gear train though so not sure if that had an effect or not.
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Old 10-22-2014, 06:34 AM
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That's interesting to know. Extra loads on the gear train shouldn't matter to the key since it is only controlling the load from the Cam. Now if the cam bearing crashed and caused the shaft to lock up, that's another thing.

Makes you wonder what the heck is going on with the cam loads.
__________________
But.....What do I know.

'04.5 EC/LB 4x4.
Howard Rods w/ oiler hole.
Oval Chambers and valve reliefs cut in Mahle Cast Pistons. 17.5:1
SoCal Stage 2 heads, 3388 Cam, Billet Flywheel, and harmonic balancer.
Danville 68mm VVT Turbo
100 over injectors.
PPE Dual CP3s
ProFab Castflow headers and uppipes.
100 PSIA MAP Sensor
Kennedy dual lift pump.

Dynoed 690 HP / 1200 TQ
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  #9  
Old 10-22-2014, 08:52 AM
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My cam pin is a 1/4 woodruff key filed to fit. So i will have to get to see if its bending any. 2 seasons of pulling on it. With lots of shock load on it from driveline breaking
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Old 10-22-2014, 10:46 AM
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I've not seen any issues with the cam gears on keyed cams at all, just the one crank gear that ripped the teeth off it.
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06 LBZ "White Lightning" 2wd rclb DP built motor Carillo, 15.25:1 "Finger" Oval Pistons w/reliefs, Socal Titanium upgraded springs on Stock heads w/Socal Billet injector holddowns,ARP, head-main-rocker studs,Soca Billet mains& Dampner, Chromoly pushrds, DP B72mmstg2R1VGT/StainlessDiesel S472/87 1.0SS triples, DHD Cast SuperHighflow intake, Exergy 14mmCP3 & 250%inj,Fass, PPE Race Valve PPE Manifolds, Banks Technicooler, AFE Boost tube, SC GMax6 Goerend "G" Grizzly Locker 3.42 gears, 1198+++hp 2k+ftlbs
Current fastest pass 1.520 60ft 6.705@108.95mph 1/8th 10.242@140.11mph
Current Standing 1/2Mile record holder for Diesel Pickup @ 159.8mph
Made it on fastest DMax list with Single VGT and single cp3 fuel only! 1.589 60ft 6.9291@103mph 1/8th 10.96@127.76mph
Stock motor best 11.277@119mph B68mmStg2R 250%inj 12mmcp3

Wife's tow rig-08 LMM SierraHD SLT2 "Stormy" CCSB murdered out TCTStg2 Exergy 12mmcp3 1/8th 9.11@77.51 1/4-14.174@96.8mph
06 GP GXP 5.3L StealthGray Metallic
http://www.danvilleperformance.com
http://www.youtube.com/markbroviakdp
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCV6K...?feature=watch
Mark@DanvillePerformance.com
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  #11  
Old 10-23-2014, 04:24 PM
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Here is my crank that I beat the hell out of for 2 years in a stock motor then built the motor and beat the hell out of it for another 2 years. Last winter I took my truck to Florida and did some testing with it. I ran 12 passes in Florida all faster then a 9.49. Engine was running great so I dropped the oil pan to put my other adapter on so I could run the 400 trans and that is when I found the teeth in the pan. I had no idea the teeth were ripped off because the engine was running so good.
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  #12  
Old 10-23-2014, 05:26 PM
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Thanks for the pictures.
__________________
But.....What do I know.

'04.5 EC/LB 4x4.
Howard Rods w/ oiler hole.
Oval Chambers and valve reliefs cut in Mahle Cast Pistons. 17.5:1
SoCal Stage 2 heads, 3388 Cam, Billet Flywheel, and harmonic balancer.
Danville 68mm VVT Turbo
100 over injectors.
PPE Dual CP3s
ProFab Castflow headers and uppipes.
100 PSIA MAP Sensor
Kennedy dual lift pump.

Dynoed 690 HP / 1200 TQ
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  #13  
Old 10-24-2014, 08:49 AM
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Anyone know of anyone else using Straight cut gears other than Watson?
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  #14  
Old 10-24-2014, 09:00 AM
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X2, thanks Brett! I couldn't find them in my collection, lol!
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06 LBZ "White Lightning" 2wd rclb DP built motor Carillo, 15.25:1 "Finger" Oval Pistons w/reliefs, Socal Titanium upgraded springs on Stock heads w/Socal Billet injector holddowns,ARP, head-main-rocker studs,Soca Billet mains& Dampner, Chromoly pushrds, DP B72mmstg2R1VGT/StainlessDiesel S472/87 1.0SS triples, DHD Cast SuperHighflow intake, Exergy 14mmCP3 & 250%inj,Fass, PPE Race Valve PPE Manifolds, Banks Technicooler, AFE Boost tube, SC GMax6 Goerend "G" Grizzly Locker 3.42 gears, 1198+++hp 2k+ftlbs
Current fastest pass 1.520 60ft 6.705@108.95mph 1/8th 10.242@140.11mph
Current Standing 1/2Mile record holder for Diesel Pickup @ 159.8mph
Made it on fastest DMax list with Single VGT and single cp3 fuel only! 1.589 60ft 6.9291@103mph 1/8th 10.96@127.76mph
Stock motor best 11.277@119mph B68mmStg2R 250%inj 12mmcp3

Wife's tow rig-08 LMM SierraHD SLT2 "Stormy" CCSB murdered out TCTStg2 Exergy 12mmcp3 1/8th 9.11@77.51 1/4-14.174@96.8mph
06 GP GXP 5.3L StealthGray Metallic
http://www.danvilleperformance.com
http://www.youtube.com/markbroviakdp
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCV6K...?feature=watch
Mark@DanvillePerformance.com
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  #15  
Old 10-24-2014, 12:51 PM
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So your thinking that cam is pulling on the crank to much?
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LBZ Stock Charger
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Al gore invented driving the turbo.
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